Kitchen Garden Forum

You will never be able to define organic because it means something different to everyone that uses the word.A quick look through the forum should tell you that.

peter wrote:Jenny I define myslef as a pragmatist and do not take to the way you are assosciating the word, by implication, with a spray anything mentality.

Retires from fizzing blue touchpaper, to define word.


A pragmatist in this context is one who seeks to garden by the criteria or definitions bookmarked by Alan (single L), but who :
* when the ruddy bindweed re-emerges for the umpteenth time, carefully anoints it with some glyphosate.
* when after picking a pint of caterpillars off the cabbages on Saturday and finding them covered again on Sunday, carefully applies some Derris.
* when certified organic additives are not available, orders normal farm yard manure.
* when suffering physical disabilities and faced with a "virgin" couch/bindweed plot, does not give up the idea of having an allotment, but carefully picks a windless day and treats all those lovely weeds to some glyphosate.
* and most importantly, does not go round saying "I'm an organic gardener", but says instead, "I use an absolute minimum of herbicides or pesticides and when I have to I use the safest ones available.".

Or more generally, "I aspire to organic gardening, but if a particular organic method is failing for me and using something non-organic will save my crop/back/will-to-garden then I will use it, but only as much as is really needed."

Everyone happy with that definition he asks, turning off the e-mail and inserting the ear-plugs.

This definition works for me. It's what I do through necessity. Nice one Peter

With respect, this thread is going nowhere.

The original idea was to define what is and isn't meant by "Organic". All the talk about how you garden is in this context utterly irrelevant. If you want to class yourself as a "Pragmatist" or anything else,do so, but don't presume to define "Organic". That's rather like Christians defining what Islam is, or Muslims defining Christianity.

I have posted a number of definitions of "Organic" (OK, yes they were from "believers"). But just because you do not yourself subscribe to such beliefs/practices does not mean you can alter them as a definition.

And yes, I do object to the suggestion that my post(s) should be ignored:

"I fear that this latest posting by Alan gets us nowhere in finding an alternative to big"O" and therefore is best ignored. It represents all the controversy making Mr PH's move necessary."

We were not asked to find an alternative - but a definition. Not much help so far

Alan

With much respect Alan please allow me an observation, you say that you object to Allan writing that your comments be ignored and at the same time you suggest that peoples’ contributions are utterly irrelevant!!!

‘All the talk about how you garden is in this context utterly irrelevant.’

Barney

This was in the context of my final observation:

"We were not asked to find an alternative - but a definition."

Alan

The original pioneers of the organic growers argued that chemical fertilisers (in-organic) were used only the transpiration stream which supplies the minerals quickly but was wasteful since they could also be quickly washed away from the plants.

They also argued that organic fertilisers are broken down slowly in the soil and remain within reach of the plant’s root hairs fungi and bacteria. Therefore organic fertilisers feed slowly and use all three means of feeding the plant (root hairs on which bacteria feed, fungi attached to the roots and transpiration) whilst in-organic fertilisers only use the transpiration method. They also argued that there were benefits in not relying on just the transpiration method of plant feeding.

I am clearly not a botanist but I did receive some education in Rural Science and readily accept mineral fertilisers provide a quick tonic for growing plants but, if over used, the chemicals are washed away and leach into the water courses. Further I fully accept compost/FYM is the method of improving any soil type by the addition of humus and plant food in the manures.

The original organic gardeners gave up chemical fertilisers and pesticides etc to save money and to help prevent any harmful substances affecting the wildlife. I have absolutely no quarrel with these fine ideals (especially saving money).

However, what I can not accept is the many claims made by the modern organic standards agencies in support of their members’ financial self interests. They just do not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Perhaps a suitable definition of organic gardening could be to try and garden with minimum pollution.

Barney

...to decide what Organic Gardening actually is.

1 to decide what he thinks Organic Gardening actually is and to post that statement.

14 to share similar definitions of what Organic Gardening actually is and how their subtly different definition is actually the right one.

7 to caution about non-Organic Gardening techniques.

6 to respond that non-Organic Gardening is actually Organic gardening seen from a different perspective.

1 to move it to the Best Practices section

2 to argue then move it to the Technical Data section

7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about what Organic Gardening actually is.

5 to flame the spell checkers

3 to correct spelling/grammar flames

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "Organic Gardening (TM) Soil Association"

15 know-it-alls who "claim" they were in the industry, and that "Organic Gardening" is perfectly correct

6 to argue over whether it's "Soil Association" or "Bloody Luddites" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid

2 to repeat the "non-Organic is Organic" thread with minor variations.

19 to post that this forum is not about arguing over Organic Gardening and to please take this discussion to a Composting Toilet forum

11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use Organic Gardening techniques and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum and asking what is wrong with Composting Toilets anyway?

36 to debate which method of Organic Gardening is superior, where to find the best Organic Gardening advice, what Organic Gardening techniques work best for this them and what techniques are faulty

7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different Organic Gardening techniques.

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes Organic Gardening relevant to this group

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the Organic Gardening controversy

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

13 to say "do a Google search on Organic Gardening before posting questions about Organic Gardening"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

With apologies to Nick from another place.

Well I don't know Nick but he has it bang on.

Spot on Peter.

I've already identified a lot of the individuals/groups. Just wondering who'll revive the topic 6 months later

Alan

Perhaps what Peter said below might be as near as possible to what we are likely to agree on regarding NOT what Organic gardening is, but what it SHOULD BE. Or am I being too optimistic - Jenny?

"I aspire to organic gardening, but if a particular organic method is failing for me and using something non-organic will save my crop/back/will-to-garden then I will use it, but only as much as is really needed."

Can I suggest a healthy dose of St John's Wort along with Evening Primrose Oil - both vailable in handy capsule form at Boots and other healthcare providers
Oh and most shops, village stores etc can also provide painkillers for the obvious headaches on show - and not only on this thread.

Wow... it looks like you all missed the point, strayed off the topic and started sniping at each other.

This wasn't supposed to be a debate about whether you are organic or not, but what it was that we're actually arguing about.

The definition is a starting point so that when a new gardener comes to the forum, and asks a simple question like 'What is the best way to start gardening organically' there is a chance for some practical suggestions without all the usual suspects descending on the topic as a chance to sound off about what they think 'Organic' is; or whether it's a good idea.

Frankly, I'm disappointed there's only been one constructive post in respect of the question that I asked for, so I'm going to lock the topic, keep the definition as it was first written, and I'm quite tempted to delete everything after it, as it's all the same old arguments, smugness and bitching as covers the rest of the forum.

So, in future, when someone (especially a new or quiet forum member) mentions the 'O' word - assume that what they mean is:-

'Organic' is an ideal; a vision of a time / situation where no harmful substances are used to raise perfect produce that is consumed where it is grown.

And get on with something more constructive. Like debating whether Hydrogenated fat is safe or not.