Feedback on peat/peat-free compost trials

[glallotments]

I agree with JB regarding the need for some sort of regulation regarding the manufacture of composts. I also agree with his concern that compost contains wood that hasn't been composted.

If compost is sold as multipurpose it should be fine enough to allow for seeds to grow. When I complained to one company about the poor germination from their multi-purpose compost their reponse was I should have bought seed compost. I was growing seeds that I didn't want to transplant at an early stage and seed compost wouldn't have had enough nutrients. I always thought if something was said to be multipurpose that it was!

I would also add that I would welcome more control over what is regarded to be safe green waste. This would be produced from known sources and so council green waste couldn't possibly qualify as it is impossible to guarantee provenance.

One person who has suffered from aminopyralid contamination was advised, by someone in authority, that one way in which she could rid herself of contaminated top growth was to add it to the council green waste stream. The proviso was with the council's permission but how many would do this without permission? Also how many council officers would be fully aware of the implications. There are also many community composting schemes that produce waste which again are difficult to track re provenance.

The trouble is that at the moment anything can be sold to amateur gardener's.

[Tony Hague]

We all have our own ideas as to how we will try and cope and to try and improve using non-peat products.
[snip]
I am rather amazed at the dialogue with Tony at present because it is not really helping the situation at all.
Let us try and unit to come to a sensible conclusion rather than give the anti-peat lobby the opportunity of staying out of the debate. Lets face it it is because of them that the problem has arisen!
JB.

I am also surprised that I have said anything amazing. Johnboy argues that we all have ideas how to cope if peat is withdrawn - I am offering my view that a lot of multipurpose compost use can be replaced with commercial or home produced mixes, with the possible exception of delicate seeds. And that it is not that difficult.

I am no anti-peat zealot. I have confessed that for the small amount of seed I resort to a JI (peat containing) mix, though I am experimienting with ways to replace it. I am simply willing to accept that just because something gives the best results, me and my few seedlings are not important enough to overide all other environmental considerations.

I put it to you all that the purpose of a lot of the argument here is not to look for ways forward if peat is withdrawn, but to argue in favour of peat. A consultation on peat reduction was performed by by Defra, the consultation is closed, and arguing here and now will not make much difference ! Can I suggest that Defra have proposed setting up a "Sustainable growing media taskforce". It sounds like they are the ones to lobby for standards to be set, if that is what is needed.

[alan refail]

@Johnboy
I am also unaware of any 'anti-peat lobby' - so I'd appreciate you keeping such provocative language out of posts on the KG forum.

KGAdmin

Anti-peat lobby groups include Butterfly Conservation , RSPB, Plantlife, Buglife and The Wildlife Trusts, and now Garden Organic. Though I might personally use a phrase such as "those campaigning against continued peat use", I think calling 'anti-peat lobby' 'provocative language' is a big step too far towards censorship of debate. Isn't debate what the forum is all about?

As for my own, "personal" trials, I shall shortly complete trial #2 and make my own decisions about my future compost buying.

[Johnboy]

KG admin,
It would be very nice to know who KG Admin is but he/she prefers to remain anonymous.
If you do not know who the anti-peat lobby is then you have not been following any of the threads with regards to the banning of peat of which this thread is a spin-off.
I rather think that in this particular instance that your comments a more inflammatory than my own and you are likely to inflame the situation rather than have the calming effect you are seeking.
You have sent me a warning notification which under the circumstances I regard as rather petty.
You will no doubt ban me from the forum for speaking out but then that is your prerogative.
I do not consider the phrases used by myself in this particular instance to be provocative in the slightest. They simply tell the truth!
There is an anti-peat lobby and I have been amazed at some of the comments that have come from Tony as these are out of character. My comments are both statements of fact which cannot be denied.
JB.

[Colin Miles]

This is, I think, what Tony is referring to
http://www.defra.gov.uk/food-farm/land-manage/soil/peat/

Note the last para

Peat is cheap, readily available and of consistent quality, and any alternative has to compete with these factors. The taskforce will produce a comprehensive and detailed roadmap to address barriers in relation to both the supply and demand of peat alternatives, with the aim of reforming once and for all a supply chain focussed around peat.

Yes - the taskforce is the group to lobby and surely KG should take part, both via the magazine and through mediums like this Forum. We may be few in numbers, but...

[MikA]

............................................I feel that DEFRA should be taking their part more seriously because if they insist on banning something then they should be made to assure that there is a viable consistent alternative available. At present this is not happening.
I am rather amazed at the dialogue with Tony at present because it is not really helping the situation at all.
Let us try and unit to come to a sensible conclusion rather than give the anti-peat lobby the opportunity of staying out of the debate. Lets face it it is because of them that the problem has arisen!
JB.

JB I have read the DEFRA report that Colin has provided the link for above and could I suggest that you follow the link and on that page you will see a pink box of "Impact Assessments". The one titled "Peat Impact Assessment" reports on the process that has been gone through, the rationale and the risks and benefits that have been identified.

They have had responses from all the different lobby groups: Environmental, Producers, Growers, and Sellers etc.

I suggest you read it as it may lighten your attitude to DEFRA and all the issues involved.

I also think the reason the "anti-peat lobby" has not responded is that the task-force is now being set up and the whole debate is now in their hands.

@Johnboy

I'm not sure why you seem 'amazed' by some posts - they form part of this interesting topic. I am also unaware of any 'anti-peat lobby' - so I'd appreciate you keeping such provocative language out of posts on the KG forum.

KGAdmin

I concur with others that this is harsh. Not understanding the lobby process seems a fundamental lack of knowledge, perhaps you should also read the DEFRA documents to get to grips with the whole process involved.

[JohnT]

...I am simply willing to accept that just because something gives the best results, me and my few seedlings are not important enough to overide all other environmental considerations.
I put it to you all that the purpose of a lot of the argument here is not to look for ways forward if peat is withdrawn, but to argue in favour of peat. A consultation on peat reduction was performed by by Defra, the consultation is closed, and arguing here and now will not make much difference!

Very well said Tony.
Surely; the argument is not about more trials of peat-based against peat-free composts (we know the results of those!); any more than it is about the merits of leaded v. unleaded petrol, or steam v. sail - it is about how to deal-with and manage change that (hopefully) will happen.

John

[Colin Miles]

On to more important points. The Bullrush professional multipurpose non-peat compost that I had was really bad by any standards. If you think that by not using peat you are saving the environment that is fine - it is debatable but not here. Defra aim to eliminate the amateur peat market by 2020 and the professional by 2030. Irrespective of whether that is sensible or not, if non-peat is to be used, then it should be 'fit for the purpose'. If we are to encourage newcomers to gardening then surely we should try to help them. As I have posted elsewhere, allotments may be set up near me, hopefully full of enthusiastic newcomers, probably anxious to be Organic and save the environment. The Coop where I bought the Bullrush is one of the nearest places to buy compost from. It is relatively cheap. What should my advice be?

[JohnT]

@Colin Miles


I guess it all depends on whether or not the Co-op is the 'only' supplier in the area; or just the nearest. What else is there in the way of choice (if anything) and how close is it really?

Yes; I drive to buy compost - simply because my local garden centre (1.5 miles away) sells no peat-free whatsoever. But at the same time; that trip will not be solely to buy compost. But let's not get into the whole transport/CO2 thing again. The fault (to my mind) lies with the local garden centre not stocking peat-free and when it did stock (one brand), last year, it was total rubbish! (Earth Matters)

No; you should not advise your beginners to buy what you have found to be bad. Although I have little sympathy with the view held by some in the industry that the beginner must be 'protected' from gardening failure; it is a fact that many will indeed be put-off. So clearly, there is no point in building-in failure. If there *really* is no alternative; then (against my principles) I would have to say that the peat-based compost should probably be your advice - at the moment - perhaps with some explanation of the peat-free 'case'. It is all down to what and where the alternatives are; which is of course a major part of the Garden Organic campaign - getting suitable and visible peat-free products into the garden centres, etc.

Does your allotment association/management perhaps bulk-buy? Could not - subject to finding/deciding-on a suitable product - you buy for resale?

[Parsons Jack]

JohnT,

Which brand of compost do you travel to buy? Is the quality similar from bag to bag? What price do you pay?

The difference in quality between bags of peat free compost, even seemingly from the same batch, would stop me buying in bulk for our association.

[JohnT]

@ParsonsJack

I have had (what I consider to be) some success with New Horizon Multi-Purpose; which does also seem to do quite well in others' tests and experiences. Consistency certainly differs from bag to bag - but still seems to work OK. However; as a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to NH's manufacturer's environmental behaviour I have recently been trying Vital Earth - but don't have enough experience of it yet - and that is just a personal thing.

I do however have the luxury (!!) of living in crowded NW Kent; which gives me a host of suppliers to choose from - once you have found them. I appreciate that it is not the same for everyone.

I don't have the prices here; but I know that my NH came from B&Q this year and using their 3 for 2 offer, it actually worked-out cheaper than Morrison's cheapo peat-based stuff. B&Q don't seem to be stocking it universally, at the moment though. Didn't do any other comparisons.

Hope that's of some use to you. I won't be making any more posts here - had a run-in with a moderator last night. No point in discussing it here, as it will be deleted.

If it's of interest; though again will probably be deleted - John Walker has been doing some peat-free comparisons here.

John

[Tony Hague]

Just to emphasise a point I've tried to make several times, that noone seems to have picked up upon.

This year I used about 400L of New Horizons, 300L of homemade potting compost, maybe 10L of homemade leafmould based seed compost, and one 20L bag of JI seed and cutting compost, containing peat.

Point being, 700L of multipurpose, the vast majority of which used for potting on tomatoes, peppers and ornamentals against 30L for seed germination. Multipurpose compost of any sort never has been the best choice for seed sowing, there are specialist seed composts for this, some peat free ones are available but even if you use peat containing compost for sowing and only sowing, you can cut peat usage a great deal.

[alan refail]

Surely; the argument is not about more trials of peat-based against peat-free composts (we know the results of those!); any more than it is about the merits of leaded v. unleaded petrol, or steam v. sail - it is about how to deal-with and manage change that (hopefully) will happen.

John

Peat against peat-free is actually what I started this thread to discuss: were the three trials of interest to people? did it change their ideas? etc.

I am intrigued by your enigmatic use of the exclamation mark in we know the results of those!

I would suggest that what the trials show is that until peat-free can match the performance of peat compost, people will continue to use the latter. I remind you that I started my trials purely for my own experience and guidance - sharing with the forum was an "added extra". I shall be using more Vital Earth for potting, but will continue to use Clover Multipurpose (from Northern Ireland, which will not ban the use of peat) bought and used in Wales (which has so far given no indication of following Defra's plans for England).

[Tony Hague]

I think Alan's trials give a useful datapoint. Thanks for sharing them. The peat/peat free comparison does seem to match what I have read in a few places; i.e. that the peat free is not (yet) as reliable.

I think it would be useful to add to this datapoint some more from those who normally use peat-free but are willing to give peat a go for the purpose of a trial; that would help to reveal if experience with the peat-free formulations improves results (I'm thinking of watering regimes mostly). I'd also be interested to try the comparison with specialist seed composts (where the peat free types are a finer formulation), to see if that helps. I'll probably get some in next spring.

I'm also interested by the very poor results from the homemade compost, and accept it as a note of caution. Although I suspect that formulation was the main issue, looking about the web I see that the RHS caution over the possibility of bacterial/fungal problems with homemade compost. I will continue experimenting with homemade composts, though I may consider sterilisation - I have an idea in my head for a rig involving a redundant wallpaper steamer ...

Finally, I note that Defra's proposal is not a "banning" of peat, but a voluntary transition. As Alan said, for a voluntary change over to work the replacement products will have to be acceptable, so let us hope that Defra's task force bring about some improvements !

[Geoff]

I've stayed out of this as I am avoiding the politicised peat debate but thought it useful to refer back to a couple of my earlier posts.
Down the "Home Made Potting Compost" thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9514&p=91153&hilit=sterilised#p91153
I showed some photos of Lettuce germinating in some home made that I had sterilised in the bottom of the Aga. It was interesting that this form of sterilisation slowed the germination. I didn't take a second photograph but the most sterilised never caught up and there wasn't much difference between the other two, surprisingly few weeds in the "as mixed". I sterilised it in an open biscuit tin, I might try again by adding some water, putting on the lid and using the shorter time to see if that is more like steam sterilisation.
Down the "Tomatoes" thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9652&hilit=tomatoes I showed some Tomatoes in Shamrock peat-free growbags and home made compost. The difference was very marked. After the photos I fed the Shamrock with both MiracleGro and Phostrogen and although the plants picked up they are still way inferior to those in home made. I am planning a second wooden growbag for next year.
I have potted up quite a few things in home made (usually 6 parts soil, 3 parts leafmould, 1 part sharp sand, FBB fertiliser) and all seem to be prospering, most are flowers but there are Peppers and Aubergines. I have three problems relying on home made; making and sieving enough leafmould, making good enough garden compost to consider sieving and selecting the soil to use. I have club root and one of my significant uses of potting compost is growing all my Brassicas to a good size in 3½" pots so I prefer to use something bought in rather than just skimming an area of the veg plot.
I haven't had a serious go at trying to create a reliable seed compost.