starting from scratch

[Urban Fox]

After a false start - I was offered a plot before Christmas but decided to wait things out a bit longer...I now have a half plot after three years on the waiting list. (I am in west London)

It is about 6m wide and 15m long (about 18ft x 45ft in old money). It's wonderfully close to the water supply.

It is covered in thistles and bindweed. But, I'm not in a rush...I want to take this slow and gently and do a good job. My dream is to have a well prepared bed for planting Asparagus next year and try and grow just a few things this year- such as Tomatoes and sweetcorn. I think it would be a good idea to weaken the bindweed before I get too enthusiastic with the planting.

Last week the soil was like concrete and impossible to dig. Thanks to the rain we had this week I finally was able to do a bit of digging. So, far I have dug a patch about 1m wide and 6 m long. Hopefully that will be bigger by the end of the weekend!

I'm interested to know what you guys would recommend I do next?
1. Should I strim the rest and cover it?
2. Glyphosate and wait?
3. keep digging?
Maybe a mixture of all three?

thanks for all your thoughts

Christina

[peter]

3 on two weeks worth of work.
2 on the rest.

[thetangoman]

Avoid spraying at all costs ..nasty stufff.I was like you last September..inherited a plot that had been ignored for 2/3 years.
I spent time skimming/hoeing off , raking the weeds and burning rubbish ..kept this going and double dug small areas as it cleaned up.
The plot wa then divided in half with raised beds each side , leeks cabbages planted and the rest of the plot covered in maure for the winter, and is is going well now.

[Nature's Babe]

Hello Christina, I wish you well with your new plot. In agreement with tango man, my garden had not been touched for about 20 years and was hard intractable clay. It makes sense to dig out every bit of the bindweed root that you can, because any tiny bit of root left in will regrow. What you can't dig cover with a layer of cardboard then mulch with anything humus rich, compost, spent mushroom compost, lawn clippings etc, amilopyralid free manure,( check because manure with amilopyralid can stunt plant growth ) The worms will work this overwinter and loosen the hard clay. I think mulching would work better for you, because every time you dig or turn the soil those old thistle and weed seeds come up to the surface and regrow. Mulching suppresses weeds and feeds and improves soil structure, once the soil structure loosens it is far easier to pull out roots in their entirety than when the clay is hard.

http://organicgardening.about.com/od/st ... garden.htm

http://www.charlesdowding.co.uk/Homepage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugFd1JdFaE0

How to make compost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqWTYB_X ... re=related

[alan refail]

Hi Urban Fox

What you do depends entirely on your attitude to weedkiller. If, like the last two posters you are totally opposed to using it, then you will have to keep digging. If you are happy to use it to clear intractable perennial weeds then you should go ahead and use it.

I have never used weedkiller myself, but will be using some in the next dry spell to clear some of my vegetable garden which has, over the last three years, become overgrown with nettles, docks and brambles. I am simply not of an age where I can ever expect to dig it all out, so it's glyphosate or unusable wilderness!

A word of warning about the cardboard and mulch method NB suggests. Bindweed is persistent and will happily spread along under cover rather than dying - see this recent thread -
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9720
As for thistles, they will come through as though the covering of cardboard and mulch wasn't there. I recall as a very young child marvelling at how thistles could grow through the tarmac pavements.

[Nature's Babe]

Alan, do you garden on Clay? I suggested that overwinter for the areas Christina can't dig to make the soil more workable, I had hard clay before and yes bindweed is persistent, but if you try digging the bindweed out of hard clay small pieces break off and get left in the soil to regrow, it's easier to remove the root whole when the soil is moist and workable, in fact most weeds pull out easily then. I am sure Christina is quite capable of working out for herself whether she wants to use weedkiller or the non-chemical methods we both suggested, it sounds to me as though she prefers to take her time and be thorough. The bonus with the mulch method is that it provides nutrients for the soil and conditions it, and increases water holding capacity, making it easier to remove any weeds that do grow.

[thetangoman]

NO WAY TO SPRAY..long term and harmfull residues left behind as research clearly shows with most soils..natures way is the best way.
Mulching over winter has a much more positive longer term impact on soil structure an soil life.Mr and Mrs Wormy are in the ground for a reason , they charge us no rent but if you feed them well then they pay you back in 100 times over !!!
Spray and they go away !!!!

[alan refail]

I am sure Christina is quite capable of working out for herself whether she wants to use weedkiller or the non-chemical methods we both suggested

Precisely what I suggested when I started my post by saying, "What you do depends entirely on your attitude to weedkiller. If, like the last two posters you are totally opposed to using it, then you will have to keep digging. If you are happy to use it to clear intractable perennial weeds then you should go ahead and use it."

[Geoff]

Mr and Mrs Wormy are in the ground for a reason , they charge us no rent but if you feed them well then they pay you back in 100 times over !!!
Spray and they go away !!!!

Evidence?

[alan refail]

Mr and Mrs Wormy are in the ground for a reason

On a pedantic note; there are no Mr or Mrs worms - they are all hermaphrodites

[Urban Fox]

Many thanks for all your suggestions.

I have to admit I have never used weedkiller, insecticide or any type of ****cide in my garden....and it is a haven for ladybirds, bees, worms, beetles and our local fox. I don't even put out beer traps for the slugs - Natures Babe you would love it

Any use of weedkiller on my plot will be a one time deal. But thanks to your help and a big of reading elsewhere, I've decided to take a three pronged approach...

ONE...
I think what I'm going to do is only weedkill one small patch which will be for the aspargus next year. As it is a perennial - once it is in the ground it is going to stay put for a long time. It won't want me disturbing it trying to dig out the bindweed.

TWO...
In the other areas where I will grow annual veg ie tomatoes, sweetcorn etc I will did and mulch. If the bindweed climbs up the sweetcorn it won't be the end of the world.

I have just discovered my local council's tree services - chipping pile. There are two whole mountains of well chipped leaves and branches. All free - I just need a spade and some strong bags to cart it off.

So in the main part of the allotment I will dig beds, using the weeds to make my own compost, cover with cardboard and mulch with the council chippings.

THREE...
As an experiment i will also dig some beds and grow green manure. The crimson clover and phacelia look good and the bees will love the flowers.

This means my allotment will be not be very productive this year. But, that is OK. I want to spend this year preparing the soil and improving the structure. Definitely somewhere where the worms will be happy.

[Nature's Babe]

Hi Christina, sounds sensible, and yes, I would love your garden, mine is very much alive too, newts frogs slow worms, the occasional mole, birds, bats, bees butterflies dragonflies, and bee flies etc. Oh yes and fungi too, all very harmonius and thriving.

[alan refail]

Hi Christina

You seem to have made a very considered decision. I hope all goes well.

But do watch for those thistles. The are very deep rooted and great survivors, They will certainly push through cardboard and mulch.

Back in my allotment days I recall we had a rhyme:

Thistles
Hoe in May, they'll be back the next day.
Hoe in June, they'll be back soon.
Hoe in July, they'll surely die.

I can't say it was entirely successful, but there's a lot of truth in it.

[thetangoman]

Good result..but remember toxins and residues will remain in the ground if you spray..much research has proved this and , will harm soil structure and life underground , even if there are no Mr and Mrs Wormies..the worms are there for a reason.
For reasearch check out the Soil Association or the HDR


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