Veg boxes - would you buy one?

[Nature's Babe]

Yes at the moment the toms are from spain, but they explained that in their newsletter, shipping from spain its more eco friendly than UK hot house tomatoes which are energy intensive. My early toms in the unheated greenhouse are forming fruits now and are about cherry tomato size. Also as everything is carefully labelled, one can make up ones own box and choose only UK grown if that's what we want, as long as we spend min £12.50... and it's delivered free which cuts out fuel needed to get to the supermarket too. This year I am more organised and planting sprouts kale broccoli, leeks etc. Hopefully will be fairly self sufficient.

[Parsons Jack]

Hi NB,

Did the newsletter describe which eco-friendly method they use to get the tomatoes from the grower to the docks for shipment, and from the UK docks to Riverford?
Wherever a product is sourced, transport is involved somewhere along the line, including Riverfords own fleet of vans to deliver it.

[snooky]

....and I don't understand how shipping the fruit and veg by ship for days is less polluting than flying it in by plane in a few hours

[oldherbaceous]

Morning snooky, i think it's because it's a lot easier to pull some on water than to try and propel in in the air. So overall it would save on fuel.

I'm sure someone could explain that a little better.

[Parsons Jack]

Morning snooky, i think it's because it's a lot easier to pull some on water than to try and propel in in the air. So overall it would save on fuel.

I'm sure someone could explain that a little better.

Morning OH,

Are you suggesting that they use rowing boats

[alan refail]

Hi NB

Just out of interest, how do they explain the "eco-friendly" onions from Argentina?

The more I hear about these modern "big-business" box schemes, the more convinced I become that they are, as I suggested in my original post "just a scam on gullible middle-class families".

I well recall the original idea of veg-box schemes, indeed I have friends locally who ran one - but have recently given up. It was based on local
provenance, organic growing and absence of transport costs. You went to your local grower and picked up your box. In some cases you had it delivered in a very local area. I never used the scheme as, strict to the principles of "local and seasonal" the boxes contained only what I was growing myself.

The modern "big-business" version seems to me totally different. Seasonal? Not if it offers items which are not in season in your area. Local? Not if it imports from Europe and further afield. And as for reducing transport! If it comes from far away it has to be transported; if it is delivered to your door (no such thing as "free delivery") it is transported; if I want fruit and vegetables I get them from the local greengrocer or a supermarket. That does not involve extra use of fuel as I am passing the greengrocer on my way to somewhere else anyway, or I am going to the supermarket for much more than just fruit and vegetables. If I got them via a box-scheme it would certainly involve extra mileage for someone.

[Nature's Babe]

Actually Alan they work with a university to reduce their emissions, and work out which is more eco friendly, some stuff is moved by train and they have local farms in each area. To turn this on it's head the supermarkets
are far worse, stuff is flown from far afield, New Zealand, Israel, Cyprus, Australia etc, and then packaged and trucked to the supermarkets.
Comparing the two - box or supermartket from the box scheme it comes in a reusable cardboard box which is returned for re-use, all other packaging is compostable. However from the supermarket there is much more waste from packaging, plastics and plasticised card etc, which needs transport and energy to recycle. Also I find the term gullible middle classes offensive, I am middle class, and far from being gullible I think before I purchase food which has a high ecological footprint or is not produced ethically and fairly, with some thought for the welfare of those producing it and emissions caused by transport.

[alan refail]

I am middle class, and far from being gullible

Hi NB

I would use exactly the same words to describe myself.

I apologise profusely if I have offended you - nothing was further from my mind when I chose those words, I do assure you.

I started this thread because I thought it would be instructive to have the views of gardeners such as yourself and the other forum members who have replied.

Alan

[Tony Hague]

Morning snooky, i think it's because it's a lot easier to pull some on water than to try and propel in in the air. So overall it would save on fuel.

I'm sure someone could explain that a little better.

Perhaps it helps to remember that to transport by ship you don't have to accelerate to 800kph and climb to 10km up.

[peter]

There are marketing phrases designed to hook onto the concious and unconcious guilt of the literate or reasoning population about the impact of their "western" lifestyle.

These assuage the conscience, provided, unlike Alan, you don't have a cynical and questioning mind.

High food-miles are not green, ever.

Bananas, oranges, pineapples, etc are an indulgence for citizens of the UK, however they get here.

Onions from overseas whatever the supplier may say are not environmentally sound. A farm down the lane can grow them.

The indulgences (above) cannot be grown here without prodigious energy inputs. One day the countries producing them will have to grow staple foodstuffs instead to feed their burgeoning populations.

[Primrose]

Quote: Are you suggesting that they use rowing boats? [/quote]

I heard yesterday on TV that 'the powers that be' are reviewing the Sentencing penalties for burglars as if was felt that in certain circumstaces a commuity sentence didn't fairly reflect the severity of the crime.

I think that the assigning offenders to rowing boats to bring food exports into the UK would be an admirable alternative. (and preferably bringing in that smelly fruit (durans ??) which aircraft won't allow to be brought on board.)

[snooky]

Perhaps it helps to remember that to transport by ship you don't have to accelerate to 800kph and climb to 10km up.

When leaving and arriving port a ship,if it normally runs on Heavy Fuel Oil,will manoeuvre on Diesel Oil and when at sea running at the required service speed the engine will be running on H.F.O.
The fuel used in a plane's engine is Kerosene a clean fuel,Diesel is relatively clean whilst H.F.O.,is a dirty fuel,and depending on where it was bunkered will contain all kinds of nasties such as sulphur in high percentages.
To fly produce from Vendee to the U.K.will take about 90 minutes and use about 2-5 tons of fuel?A ship from Vendee will use up to 10 tons of Diesel to get in and out of port and on the run to the U.K,3-5 days depending on service speed,and,depending on size of engine(s),will burn up to 45 t0ns of H.F.O.a day,so the argument for shipping produce by sea to reduce pollution does not stand up.And,whichever method is used the produce still has to transported by road/rail to the distributor.

[Parsons Jack]

Perhaps it helps to remember that to transport by ship you don't have to accelerate to 800kph and climb to 10km up.

When leaving and arriving port a ship,if it normally runs on Heavy Fuel Oil,will manoeuvre on Diesel Oil and when at sea running at the required service speed the engine will be running on H.F.O.
The fuel used in a plane's engine is Kerosene a clean fuel,Diesel is relatively clean whilst H.F.O.,is a dirty fuel,and depending on where it was bunkered will contain all kinds of nasties such as sulphur in high percentages.
To fly produce from Vendee to the U.K.will take about 90 minutes and use about 2-5 tons of fuel?A ship from Vendee will use up to 10 tons of Diesel to get in and out of port and on the run to the U.K,3-5 days depending on service speed,and,depending on size of engine(s),will burn up to 45 t0ns of H.F.O.a day,so the argument for shipping produce by sea to reduce pollution does not stand up.And,whichever method is used the produce still has to transported by road/rail to the distributor.

Thanks for that Snooky. You have just answered the question I was about to ask

[peter]

But and it is a big but, what are the tonnages of cargo per litre of fuel?

[Ian in Cumbria]

Peter

You beat me to the question! A parallel would be why it is more fuel efficient for a diesel-hauled trainload of passengers to go from A to B than it is for them all to go in cars even though the loco will consume more fuel per mile. It is the fuel per mile per passenger that matters. Or the fuel per mile per ton of cargo in the case of imported food.

To be absolutely accurate you would need to include the energy used to make the ship/plane in the first place, the energy used to produce the fuel itself and to ship it from where it was found, the energy involved in building the dock/airport etc etc. I'm just trying to make the point that this is not a simple calculation. However, instinctively, it surely is more energy efficient to grow crops as close to the point of consumption as possible.

Another consideration is the fact that importing from a third world country is good for that country's economy, especially if you can guarantee that the growers get a decent slice of the cake - not always the case. How you balance this against energy miles I don't know.

All these enrgy use and pollution calculations are more complex than some people would have you believe. I'm a bit on my soapbox now but I get really angry when I read of people using electric cars to reduce fossil fuel use or to lessen the impact of greenhouse gases. Where do they think the electricity comes from? What electric cars do succeed in is not polluting where they are used, they pollute where the electricity is produced. This in itself can be a worthy effect if cities are less polluted but let's not fool ourselves that somehow electric or hybrid cars are less polluting overall.

Ok, off the soapbox and back to the garden. Spent a good bit of today fencing off the veg (temporarily I hope) against the attentions of our new puppy. Adorable -yes. Annoying - definitely yes! Will be better in a couple of weeks when the injections have taken effect and we can take her out. At the moment it is like trying to bottle up a whirlwind. The greenhouse is going well - first tomatoes have set. The only slow plants are the melons, I'm sure they will take off at some point. (After my energy rant I certainly won't be helping them along!)

Regards

Ian