Hi Primrose,
I don't want to seem smug but I actually got them all right by guessing number thirteen. I even surprised myself.
Hughs fish fight
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud
John Walker,
If something can be misconstrued then you are the person to do it. Another pedantic posting.
I really have not got the time nor the inclination to reply to you posting that is full of inaccuracies and to me is full of Vegan speak.
Vegan speak is always gobbledegook to me.
JB.
If something can be misconstrued then you are the person to do it. Another pedantic posting.
I really have not got the time nor the inclination to reply to you posting that is full of inaccuracies and to me is full of Vegan speak.
Vegan speak is always gobbledegook to me.
JB.
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alan refail
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Johnboy wrote:Vegan speak is always gobbledegook to me.
Hi Johnboy
Looking for arguments in favour of veganism I came across this, which has wide currency on the web. It doesn't take long to find the errors and untruths
20 Reasons To Go Vegan
1) Vegans on average live 6 years longer than non-vegans.
2) The average vegan total cholesterol level is 128. The lowest level for a heart attack is 150.
3) Milk consuption has been linked to cholic, ear infections, asthma, and a whole slew of other diseases.
4) Cholesterol can cause impotence
5) Vegans dont consume any cholesterol
6) Vegans dont smoke, and smoking is one of the leading causes of death
7) 33% percent of Americans are OBESE, while only 2% of vegans are
8 ) Tofu is a lot cheaper than steak
9) Fur has formeldahyde in it, which has been known to cause cancers and etc
10) Charred meats contain carcinogens that can cause cancers
11) Fast food meats like those at McDonald's have thousands of additives that are not only addictive, they can cause you to gain weight and mess up your whole body
12) The USFDA recognizes vegetarian and vegan diets as the healthiest diets.
13) Veal calves are often stillborn or unborn.
14) Veal calves that are born are raises in crates where they cant even turn around, and are fed only a diet of milk for 16 weeks before they are slaughtered.
15) Dairy cows on average live for 5-7 years, where as they are able to live to 20 years or more!
16) Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, and have the intelligence of a 3-year old.
17) Egg-laying hens are kept without water and food for 14 days at a time to force their bodies into another egg-laying cycle
18) It takes 7 cows to furnish a leather interior Mercedes-Benz
19) Milk is known to cause acne breakouts
20) MEAT IS DEAD FLESH
In this instance it's been picked up by an 18-year old American girl.
http://aveganlife.blogspot.com/
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John Walker
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I'm confused here. I'm not a vegan (I didn't say I was). I'm a vegetarian (with occasional lapses for a fishcake).
I eat milk and cheese and I've worked with dairy cattle, so I know what happens to them and how milk is produced.
What have I misconstrued re my previous comment? As I said, I am interested in seeing any scientific evidence that shows cows will not produce milk if they are 'dissatisfied'.
Please explain the point and reasoning for your comments on veganism.
I'm confused here. I'm not a vegan (I didn't say I was). I'm a vegetarian (with occasional lapses for a fishcake).
I eat milk and cheese and I've worked with dairy cattle, so I know what happens to them and how milk is produced.
What have I misconstrued re my previous comment? As I said, I am interested in seeing any scientific evidence that shows cows will not produce milk if they are 'dissatisfied'.
Please explain the point and reasoning for your comments on veganism.
Hi Primrose,
In one of Alan's postings there is a website for Nocton Dairy and contrary to what you are saying they are saying this;
"Rather than being wholly indoors in the summer they would have access to outside loafing, and grazing when ‘dry’.
So this is not the novel concept portrayed by many."
Most dairy cattle spend 6 months under cover and if you were to see some of the conditions that they live under you would not like it.
The Nocton scheme is a vastly improved scheme and the cattle are not almost up to their udders in cow sh-t for weeks on end and herded closely together. Now John Walker is right in many things he says and cruelty does exist in farming but these practices are fast waining.
It is people who buy their milk in Supermarkets that are really responsible for the disappearance of small dairy units and nothing to do with large dairy units like the one proposed at Nocton. Nocton is the farming fraternities answer to the problem. The cows at Nocton will be better cared for than those on a normal dairy farm.
Potestors are always putting the emotive side of the argument and to my way of thinking once emotions are used it is a form of blackmail.
I would hazard a guess that the majority of those who have signed have not really got the foggiest idea what they have signed-up against.
The nursery rhyme says "the cows are in the meadow fast asleep" which is totally wrong because they are ruminating, chewing the cud, digesting the food in their first stomach and passing it through to their second stomach and in the process making the milk that you and I drink.
Now if you look at the Nocton Dairy unit you will see the cattle lying down on a clean, dry and well ventilated stall with more light than the normal dairy cows have at this time of the year under present methods.
For the cows I would suggest that the Nocton system is not cruel and an improvement on present day practice.
You may not like the numbers involved but it is the general public that have brought this on themselves.
JB.
In one of Alan's postings there is a website for Nocton Dairy and contrary to what you are saying they are saying this;
"Rather than being wholly indoors in the summer they would have access to outside loafing, and grazing when ‘dry’.
So this is not the novel concept portrayed by many."
Most dairy cattle spend 6 months under cover and if you were to see some of the conditions that they live under you would not like it.
The Nocton scheme is a vastly improved scheme and the cattle are not almost up to their udders in cow sh-t for weeks on end and herded closely together. Now John Walker is right in many things he says and cruelty does exist in farming but these practices are fast waining.
It is people who buy their milk in Supermarkets that are really responsible for the disappearance of small dairy units and nothing to do with large dairy units like the one proposed at Nocton. Nocton is the farming fraternities answer to the problem. The cows at Nocton will be better cared for than those on a normal dairy farm.
Potestors are always putting the emotive side of the argument and to my way of thinking once emotions are used it is a form of blackmail.
I would hazard a guess that the majority of those who have signed have not really got the foggiest idea what they have signed-up against.
The nursery rhyme says "the cows are in the meadow fast asleep" which is totally wrong because they are ruminating, chewing the cud, digesting the food in their first stomach and passing it through to their second stomach and in the process making the milk that you and I drink.
Now if you look at the Nocton Dairy unit you will see the cattle lying down on a clean, dry and well ventilated stall with more light than the normal dairy cows have at this time of the year under present methods.
For the cows I would suggest that the Nocton system is not cruel and an improvement on present day practice.
You may not like the numbers involved but it is the general public that have brought this on themselves.
JB.
John Walker,
My posting was a fishing expedition and was successful.
I now know that you are not a Vegan and give a sigh of relief!
If you only use part of my sentence to pose your question what sort of answer do do expect?
Of course cows lactate when they have given birth but as to the quality and quantity if they are kept in lousy conditions then you will not get
the quality fit for a dairy to accept because the milk is of poor quality.
I suspect that at times you may have helped on a dairy farm but were you actually employed by that farm? If you were not employed by that farm then your observations are that of a casual observer and do not carry the same weight. If you were employed what qualifications do you have with regards to animal husbandry?
JB.
My posting was a fishing expedition and was successful.
I now know that you are not a Vegan and give a sigh of relief!
If you only use part of my sentence to pose your question what sort of answer do do expect?
Of course cows lactate when they have given birth but as to the quality and quantity if they are kept in lousy conditions then you will not get
the quality fit for a dairy to accept because the milk is of poor quality.
I suspect that at times you may have helped on a dairy farm but were you actually employed by that farm? If you were not employed by that farm then your observations are that of a casual observer and do not carry the same weight. If you were employed what qualifications do you have with regards to animal husbandry?
JB.
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alan refail
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Hi Johnboy, Primrose et al
I posted the link to Nocton Dairies site as I think it important to see both sides of the argument.
As a balance, the site created by Compassion in World Farming is called "COWS BELONG IN FIELDS".
That name alone is an inaccurate emotional appeal. As Johnboy correctly points out, the vast majority of UK dairy cows spend half the year indoors. When I lived on a dairy farm as a child I well remember the cows being let out to grass in the spring after a winter indoors - and I still recall the appalling mess they had to live in during that five or six months: dark, wet and smelly. The only dairy cows the protesters would see in fields in winter would be dead ones!
But, you get a more vocal protest by appealing to people's emotions rather than to their reason! In my vegan posting viewtopic.php?p=88838#p888380 look at number 17) "Egg-laying hens are kept without water and food for 14 days at a time to force their bodies into another egg-laying cycle" then think about it!
I posted the link to Nocton Dairies site as I think it important to see both sides of the argument.
As a balance, the site created by Compassion in World Farming is called "COWS BELONG IN FIELDS".
That name alone is an inaccurate emotional appeal. As Johnboy correctly points out, the vast majority of UK dairy cows spend half the year indoors. When I lived on a dairy farm as a child I well remember the cows being let out to grass in the spring after a winter indoors - and I still recall the appalling mess they had to live in during that five or six months: dark, wet and smelly. The only dairy cows the protesters would see in fields in winter would be dead ones!
But, you get a more vocal protest by appealing to people's emotions rather than to their reason! In my vegan posting viewtopic.php?p=88838#p888380 look at number 17) "Egg-laying hens are kept without water and food for 14 days at a time to force their bodies into another egg-laying cycle" then think about it!
John Walker,
Your quote;
Choosing organic milk (produced by a co-operative venture rather than a shareholder driven mega business) is probably the most ethically and ecologically sound way of ensuring that dairy cattle live the best lives they can.
A Co-operative can be a mega business and because you stick the word organic in front of it make not a scrap of difference.
The dairy that provides my milk has 250 lactating cows, the average at any given time, and it distributes it's milk over as wide an area of South Shropshire and North Herefordshire as it can. It is not a co-operative but I would suggest that Organic co-operatives are out for the same profit margin, if not a whole lot more, than the conventional dairy that serves me.
The standards between an organic dairy unit and a conventional dairy unit are almost the same but organic cows are needlessly fed on organically produced feedstuffs and organic bedding used and of course nothing containing GM. We all know how hysterical the organic faction are about GM. I do not think organic milk is worth the premium you have to pay to drink it. Cruelty can occur on any kind of farm so don't make out organic farmers as saints 'cos they are not!
Whether you are an organic or conventional producer you are in business for one thing, Profit. Please don't try and say that organic producers are producing milk for the good of the users 'cos that would be a fib!
JB.
Your quote;
Choosing organic milk (produced by a co-operative venture rather than a shareholder driven mega business) is probably the most ethically and ecologically sound way of ensuring that dairy cattle live the best lives they can.
A Co-operative can be a mega business and because you stick the word organic in front of it make not a scrap of difference.
The dairy that provides my milk has 250 lactating cows, the average at any given time, and it distributes it's milk over as wide an area of South Shropshire and North Herefordshire as it can. It is not a co-operative but I would suggest that Organic co-operatives are out for the same profit margin, if not a whole lot more, than the conventional dairy that serves me.
The standards between an organic dairy unit and a conventional dairy unit are almost the same but organic cows are needlessly fed on organically produced feedstuffs and organic bedding used and of course nothing containing GM. We all know how hysterical the organic faction are about GM. I do not think organic milk is worth the premium you have to pay to drink it. Cruelty can occur on any kind of farm so don't make out organic farmers as saints 'cos they are not!
Whether you are an organic or conventional producer you are in business for one thing, Profit. Please don't try and say that organic producers are producing milk for the good of the users 'cos that would be a fib!
JB.
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John Walker
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Thanks.
@Johnboy
The difference is they are driven by a different set of values as to how we treat animals and the land in general. In organic milk production these values are enhanced by working to a set of standards. In organic systems the holistic approach means that care and attention is paid to all stages of the production process, and that naturally extends to what the cows eat. I like organic milk because I care about what the cows eat, what kind of lives they lead, and I care about what I eat. That's worth a few pence more for me any day and I get a buzz out of knowing that organic producers are doing the best they can for their livestock, their customers and for the ecosystems that support us all.
You suggest that organic milk is no different to non-organic, but interestingly a recent report from Newcastle University found that organic milk is lower in saturated fats and higher in beneficial fatty acids than non-organic milk. Farmers Weekly ran this report on it:
http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/01/1 ... report.htm
So science tells us that organic does make a difference (the Soil Association web site details a number of other studies showing the benefits of organic milk: http://www.soilassociation.org/News/New ... fault.aspx). It's another reason I choose organic milk. I did not suggest that organic farmers were saints.
Thanks.
@Johnboy
I'm sorry you chose to take a cheap pop at veganism, but what I'm curious to know is whether you (or alan refail) have any vegan friends, or that if you met a stranger who was vegan, whether you would afford them the same level of courtesy and respect as any other human being?I now know that you are not a Vegan and give a sigh of relief!
You choose (not for the first time) to cast doubt on my integrity, but I'm pleased to say your suspicions are dead wrong. I worked full-time on the farm, helping out close friends, for around 18 months. This included twice-daily milkings and involvement in all aspects of husbandry plus much else. I do not have any formal qualifications in animal husbandry, but no one needs qualifications to know when animals are in distress (such as just after forced separation following calving).I suspect that at times you may have helped on a dairy farm but were you actually employed by that farm? If you were not employed by that farm then your observations are that of a casual observer and do not carry the same weight. If you were employed what qualifications do you have with regards to animal husbandry?
You're wrong again on both counts. Co-operatives by their nature tend to be a group of small businesses working together to mutual benefit, and yes, of course they aim to make a profit - and all power to them. I did not suggest otherwise. As an example, have a look at the Calon Wen web site, which tells of how 20 family dairy farms work together, and you'll see what I mean http://www.calonwen-cymru.com/A Co-operative can be a mega business and because you stick the word organic in front of it make not a scrap of difference...The standards between an organic dairy unit and a conventional dairy unit are almost the same but organic cows are needlessly fed on organically produced feedstuffs and organic bedding used and of course nothing containing GM.
The difference is they are driven by a different set of values as to how we treat animals and the land in general. In organic milk production these values are enhanced by working to a set of standards. In organic systems the holistic approach means that care and attention is paid to all stages of the production process, and that naturally extends to what the cows eat. I like organic milk because I care about what the cows eat, what kind of lives they lead, and I care about what I eat. That's worth a few pence more for me any day and I get a buzz out of knowing that organic producers are doing the best they can for their livestock, their customers and for the ecosystems that support us all.
You suggest that organic milk is no different to non-organic, but interestingly a recent report from Newcastle University found that organic milk is lower in saturated fats and higher in beneficial fatty acids than non-organic milk. Farmers Weekly ran this report on it:
http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/01/1 ... report.htm
So science tells us that organic does make a difference (the Soil Association web site details a number of other studies showing the benefits of organic milk: http://www.soilassociation.org/News/New ... fault.aspx). It's another reason I choose organic milk. I did not suggest that organic farmers were saints.
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Shallot Man
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Come Come lads. 
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alan refail
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John Walker,
I have no doubt that many contributors to this forum have at one time or another worked on farms but you have ignored my question so I will pose it again.
What qualifications have you got in animal husbandry? It is a very simple question but it remains unanswered.
JB.
I have no doubt that many contributors to this forum have at one time or another worked on farms but you have ignored my question so I will pose it again.
What qualifications have you got in animal husbandry? It is a very simple question but it remains unanswered.
JB.
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The Grock in the Frock
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Right i think i got the answer!!!!!!
F**k the big supermarkets off and lets get back to our little local shops,like the butchers,bakers,fish monger,veg shop.
When i was a child i used to enjoy doing the shopping with my mother.We knew each and every one of the shop owners and my mum always had a little gab with him/her and most of the time i would get a free piece of fruit,little bit of cheese or a broken biscuit.I loved going the shops.Now all i have to look forward to is one big shop were i can buy most things with people pushing and shoving,checkout girls who look bored sh****ss and no little freebies,and food that isnt really looked after properly
WHAT YOU RECON GUYS,GET HUGH FOR THE BIG SHOP FIGHT!
F**k the big supermarkets off and lets get back to our little local shops,like the butchers,bakers,fish monger,veg shop.
When i was a child i used to enjoy doing the shopping with my mother.We knew each and every one of the shop owners and my mum always had a little gab with him/her and most of the time i would get a free piece of fruit,little bit of cheese or a broken biscuit.I loved going the shops.Now all i have to look forward to is one big shop were i can buy most things with people pushing and shoving,checkout girls who look bored sh****ss and no little freebies,and food that isnt really looked after properly
WHAT YOU RECON GUYS,GET HUGH FOR THE BIG SHOP FIGHT!
Love you lots like Jelly Tots
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oldherbaceous
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Dear Grockie, how i agree with you, and i think most people on here have the same thoughts regarding trying to use the smaller independant shops.
But, and this is a big but, the majority of the general public just want to get there and back as quickly as possible. They always seem to be trying to fit so much into a day, they seem to forget to enjoy it.
I too remember going to the little post office, "that seemed to sell a little of everthing", next door but one to where my Mum still lives, lovely memories.
I do think things will change a little regarding the small shops, just not the best timing for them at the moment with all the cuts going on.
By the way, i do like it when you get angry and show your talons a little.
But, and this is a big but, the majority of the general public just want to get there and back as quickly as possible. They always seem to be trying to fit so much into a day, they seem to forget to enjoy it.
I too remember going to the little post office, "that seemed to sell a little of everthing", next door but one to where my Mum still lives, lovely memories.
I do think things will change a little regarding the small shops, just not the best timing for them at the moment with all the cuts going on.
By the way, i do like it when you get angry and show your talons a little.
Kind Regards, Old Herbaceous.
There's no fool like an old fool.
There's no fool like an old fool.