The Future of Food and Farming

A place to chat about anything you like, including non-gardening related subjects. Just keep it clean, please!

Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud

User avatar
Geoff
KG Regular
Posts: 5784
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:33 pm
Location: Forest of Bowland
Been thanked: 319 times

Ex-Soil Association director Patrick Holden makes the important point that the report dismisses a move toward self-sufficiency based on re-localised food production, and instead relies on a global food system to solve all the perceived problems. Holden, who contributed to the report, also makes the point that it is effectively recommending 'business as usual' i.e. an unsustainable approach to food production.


I have so far read the Executive Summary and Report C6 and was thinking of compiling a posting but haven't got round to it.

The argument in favour of retaining a globally traded food system is presented, quite logically, as resilience. If countries or communities just look after themselves they have no backup to cope with a local disaster be it weather, geological or disease. Particularly with prediction of more weather extremes it is imperative that we have an interconnected world so we can help each other out.

I'll make some other comments when I have reread / read some more sections but all the genetic discussion is fascinating. Particular point to note is how GM is a small part of genetic research but has its place (as JB pointed out). The comment I found most enlightening was that they don't know what creates F1 vigour, if they could crack that and transfer it into open pollinated species what a holy grail that would be!
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

John Walker,
But it was good to hear Professor Jules Pretty talking about how farming is finally catching up with organic gardening when he discussed companion planting to repel plant pests and attract beneficial predators. He described it as 'clever, intelligent farming'. Maybe he should start talking to some earth-friendly organic gardeners.


Jules Pretty should be talking to the unconverted not just the converted
One presumes his comments were made for the benefits of everybody.
This subject is far too important for the usual petty squabbles it is time we tried to pull together. What you are doing, at the very outset, is trying to distance even further the differences between conventional and organic.
John, this has got to stop. Now!
We have got to try and find common ground and work from there. Companion planting at present is really on a song and a promise and I feel that money would be well spent for some proper full scale research that we can all draw from. I am sure there is a world of knowledge that can be gathered for the use of us all. Let us not throw away this opportunity!
JB.
richward
KG Regular
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Johnboy, I think you are misunderstanding what John Walker is saying.

Isn't he saying that earth friendly organic gardeners are an example of 'clever, intelligent farming'?

We have got to try and find common ground and work from there.


I agree with you here. We have to try and move away from the often divisive and alienating language that's used in discussions like these. Whenever I see words such as factions, conspiracies and scams, being used whenever people discuss peat, organics, GM, climate change, green issues, be it on-line, in the media, I just think there's never going to be a positive result. Nothing will ever change. It's very dispiriting.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.
User avatar
Tony Hague
KG Regular
Posts: 703
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:26 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 24 times
Contact:

Johnboy wrote:Companion planting at present is really on a song and a promise


A bit of an aside, but you might be interested to know that I have seen transplanted Brassica undersown with trefoil in the modules used on quite a large scale by organic growers to deter cabbage root fly. (The flies make several trial landings before egg laying, and must find a suitable host on a high proportion of trials before they will lay).
So some companion planting ideas at least are practiced by serious growers.
User avatar
Geoff
KG Regular
Posts: 5784
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:33 pm
Location: Forest of Bowland
Been thanked: 319 times

Sharma's viewpoint is that the world produces more than enough food already, and that there are other factors we need to consider rather than be bounced into this brave new world of 'sustainable intensification'.


Here is a collection of extracts from the report :

"Hunger remains widespread. 925 million people experience hunger: they lack access to sufficient of the major macronutrients (carbohydrates, fats and protein). Perhaps another billion are thought to suffer from ‘hidden hunger’, in which important micronutrients (such as vitamins and minerals) are missing from their diet, with consequent risks of physical and mental impairment. In contrast, a billion people are substantially over-consuming, spawning a new public health epidemic involving chronic conditions such as type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Much of the responsibility for these three billion people having suboptimal diets lies within the global food system.
This challenge is already recognised in the target of Millennium Development Goal 1. This aims to halve the number of undernourished people from the 1990 level of 16% to 8% in 2015. The current figure is 13.5%. Although China met its target in the early 2000s, many countries in Africa and south Asia are unlikely to succeed by 2015; although there has been a slight fall (from 1,020 million to 925 million over the past 12 months), progress has been slow.
Although global estimates of waste are reliant so far on a weak evidence base, there is little doubt that the scale is substantial. It has been estimated that as much as 30% of all food grown worldwide may be lost or wasted before and after it reaches the consumer. Some estimates have placed it as high as 50%. Addressing waste across the entire food chain will be critical in any strategy to feed around eight billion people sustainably and equitably by 2030, and nine billion by 2050. Halving the total amount of food waste by 2050 is considered to be a realistic target, in view of the evidence reviewed by this Project. If the current global estimate of 30% waste is assumed, then halving the total could reduce the food required by 2050 by an amount approximately equal to 25% of today’s production."

I'm not sure if the maths of all this adds up to the conclusion that we already produce enough food but we distribute it badly, waste it directly and indirectly by over consumption. With the projected population growth and the consumption aspirations of developing regions I am sure it suggests more production is required even if we can solve the inequities in the current system.

Far from the current system being broken let's celebrate its successes. As well as the hunger reduction mentioned above, against a background of population growth (I haven't found the growth figure for the same period), there are these production growth figures:

"Overall, relatively little new land has been brought into agriculture in recent decades. Although global crop yields grew by 115% between 1967 and 2007, the area of land in agriculture increased by only 8% and the total currently stands at approximately 4,600 million hectares."
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Hi Richward,
I'm afraid that I do not misunderstand John Walker I very much understand what he says.
When a person asks for gardening advice on this forum and I suggest the use of Glyphosate to remove the perennial weeds that have invaded an asparagus bed, which would have involved about the use of two eggcups-full of made up solution and then without giving that person any advice to the contrary I get a posting directed at me about the use of Glyphosate. I am very well aware of what John is about. He is trying very hard to be an evangelist on behalf of the organic organizations. I am afraid that he is going about it the wrong way because he puts up peoples back and wonders why he gets a bashing every now and then.
I was organic for 30 odd years and I have tried most methods of growing in my time and after trying the French Total Return System alongside normal Organics alongside Conventional growing in three 90ft beds I packed up organics as a waste of time because there was not the yield nor the quality in the organic production. I will say that the conventional beds did not receive any pesticides but did have artificial fertilizers as well as FYM.
If you can divulge the scientific explanation behind companion planting I would be most grateful as to why a particular plant planted in close proximity should produce the desired result. Well I know that you cannot but that is why I call for scientific research be carried out to give us this knowledge. To be told by a Soil Association Official "some of our growers have found such a such plant planted in proximity of another plant sometimes works" is not a good enough reason for me to adopt what has been said. It must be a positive answer not as I have said "a song and a promise." That is why Jules Pretty's comments should be directed to all gardeners and not just the converted.
JB.
User avatar
Tony Hague
KG Regular
Posts: 703
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:26 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 24 times
Contact:

Johnboy wrote:
If you can divulge the scientific explanation behind companion planting I would be most grateful as to why a particular plant planted in close proximity should produce the desired result.


For the practice I mentioned above, try this:

http://orgprints.org/7141/1/Companion_p ... l_2006.pdf
richward
KG Regular
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:42 pm

I am afraid that he is going about it the wrong way because he puts up peoples back and wonders why he gets a bashing every now and then.


It's interesting that bashing someone on an internet forum seems acceptable. What happened to discussion, debate?

I am very well aware of what John is about. He is trying very hard to be an evangelist on behalf of the organic organizations.


With respect Johnboy, I've read a lot of your posts on the forum and say your comment could equally apply to yourself - on behalf of the non-organic organizations.

Both you and John Walker are obviously very passionate about your beliefs.
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Richward,
There is one very great difference myself and John Walker is that I am here to give help and advice to anybody, irrespective of their method of growing. I have yet to see any advice about growing proffered by John Walker who uses this forum for his own devices. Which is not what the forum is designed to do.
I am a retired professional grower and I have been growing vegetables since 1943 and I think that I have covered most forms of growing in this time and have served this forum to the best I can for a very long time.
Sadly it appears that the postings proffered by John Walker bring the worst out in me beause a great many of them are inacurate and based on theory with no practical advice given.
I stand for Pragmatic Gardening and nothing else.
It seems that my advice is no longer needed.
As a very busy person, of late, with a load of personal problems to attend to, perhaps it would be better if I were now to call it a day.
JB.
User avatar
alan refail
KG Regular
Posts: 7254
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
Been thanked: 7 times

Johnboy wrote:It seems that my advice is no longer needed.
As a very busy person, of late, with a load of personal problems to attend to, perhaps it would be better if I were now to call it a day.


Johnboy

I am sure I am not alone in thinking that your ready advice on all growing matters is essential to the success of the forum, and that it would be a cause for sadness if forum members were to lose it. I am also sure that I will not be alone in asking you to stay with us.

The forum will always have a ready supply of "preachers of beliefs"; to find anyone else with your long practical experience will be well nigh impossible.

Alan
User avatar
Elle's Garden
KG Regular
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: West Sussex

Alan, you are certainly not alone in your thoughts - I echo them.

JB; I, for one, value the experience your postings provide and the valuable growing knowledge you bring. You were missed before when absent for a while and would most certainly be missed again.

I also enjoy watching the debates unfold, as the debates allow knowledge to widen. I rarely feel able to enter into the debates as I feel I lack the knowledge and conviction( and currently strength) one needs to debate, but I certainly follow them and expand my thinking.
Kind regards,

Elle
User avatar
Geoff
KG Regular
Posts: 5784
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:33 pm
Location: Forest of Bowland
Been thanked: 319 times

Don't be so silly JB. I don't know if you carried out your threat to boycott the magazine, if you did you will be pleased to hear he has disappeared from that (I'm getting more published than he his!). I saw that journalist Delingpole on TV the other day who stirred up climategate, another distiller of other peoples ideas, and what a prat he came over as. These sort of people dig their own holes with more exposure. You keep dispensing your wisdom for the benefit of us all.
To go back to the thread rather than the side issues, have you read any good sections? I've downloaded 5 more to work through; C7 on waste, DR12 on water (I think water is the key, whatever your production method water is likely to be a limiting factor and I'm hoping there is some good research on how to get more with less), R2 on China, SR7 on soil and SR31 on fertiliser. At least my comments will be based on reading the sources not second hand spun interpretations.
Gerry
KG Regular
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:55 pm
Location: West Cork,

Johnboy,
I fully agree with all that Alan, Elle and Geof say. Your advice has been invalueable and so readily given. Posts with your involvement are the first that I read and find to have most value. All my gardening practices are so
influenced by you. Please reconsider.
Regards, Gerry.
User avatar
KGAdmin
Site Admin
Posts: 792
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:26 pm
Location: Horncastle
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

You know I expect to to see this kind of bickering on our Auto Scooter forum - which is full of kids (and who in fact, seem to be able to debate with more decorum than some) - but I am disappointed to read posts here.

Aside from people storming off, a good measure of someone's intelligence is their ability to debate a topic without resulting to personal insults.

I would appreciate it on behalf of those more calmer readers - if we could all take a deep breath, apologise (if you feel the need to), and continue this discussion in a more friendly manner.

Thank you

KGAdmin
Bren
KG Regular
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Birmingham

I too like Alan, Elle and Gerry hope you don't leave the forum,I didn't grow veg. while my husband was alive, I grew flowers and salad stuff, but since he died(RIP) I read all your advice on growing all the veg. that we like with good results.
My husband used to read your advice as well and thats going back a good many years, so please don't leave the forum.

Bren
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic