Hughs fish fight

[The Grock in the Frock]

Watched Mr Ramsies program last night about the sharks fins?????????????? how nasty to watch that poor hammer head shark have its fins cut off whilst still alive,these programs are really opening my eyes
Have tried some ov jamies fish suppers,nice! Hope you have all signed up to the big fish fight,maybe next year things will change.

[Primrose]

Was out last night so will try & catch up on that programme on Iplayer or whatever Channel 4's version is but I find it truly sickening to see any animal dying a horrible death. I think it demeans us as humans if we can't at least grant them a swift death if they're meant to provide food for us.

Just checked the latest number signing the Hugh's petition. It's now running at 508,000. I think a lot of people have had their eyes opened at what's involved behind the scenes in providing fish (or any meat, for that matter) on our table. Wouldn't surprise me if this campaign ends up in a lot more people turning vegetarian.

[Primrose]

Interesting to read that all the supermarkets are reporting that their fish counters have been vastly increasing the sale of non-popular fish in the past few days since last week's fish programmes on Channel 4 & the result of all the publicity. I think a lot of people who never gave a moment's thought to the source of their food are now looking at things from a different angle. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues - one swallow does not make a summer. However with signatures to the petition now at the 520,000 mark, the word does seem to be spreading.

The other food production project which has been exercising my mind is the probably imminent planning permission approval for the proposed Mega Dairy somewhere in Lincolnshire, with thousands of cows being kept permanently in stalls and never seeing the light of day or grazing in open fields. Does anybody know the latest progress on that one?

[alan refail]

The other food production project which has been exercising my mind is the probably imminent planning permission approval for the proposed Mega Dairy somewhere in Lincolnshire, with thousands of cows being kept permanently in stalls and never seeing the light of day or grazing in open fields. Does anybody know the latest progress on that one?

Quote from http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/land_use/

January 11, 2011 in Agriculture, Caselaw, Food, Water | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)

When it comes to farms, size matters

In the UK, today was the last day for objections to an application for planning permission submitted by Nocton Dairies’ to build a ‘a US-style ‘mega’ dairy farm’ in rural Lincolnshire for a 3,770 cow dairy unit, dwarfing the average herd that has no more than a few hundred cows. An extraordinary 70,000+ objectors have objected to the proposed development, even though the new farm has reduced the number of cows it proposes to keep (the initial application was for 8,100) and despite impressive commitments to reduce carbon emissions in milk production.
While there are many concerns, objectors link two particularly resonant strands of opposition. The first is that a dairy farm of this size is out of place in the English countryside, the second is that keeping the cows inside, without letting them graze in the fresh air, infringes British beliefs in animal welfare. While much milk is imported into the United Kingdom from elsewhere in the EU, consumers have demonstrated a continuing desire for local dairy products and all the major supermarkets have stated that they would not sell Nocton’s milk in their stores. Campaigners and retailers alike have drawn on understandings of rurality, locality and an understanding of British (as opposed to American) farming to suggest that ‘if this proposal goes through it would not only have a disastrous effect on the well-being of the animals, but will potentially allow other factory farms in to change British farming and our countryside forever’.
As one campaign group puts it (drawing on a British love of tea), ‘Would you drink factory milk from battery cows? Not in my cuppa.’


The Nocton Dairies website puts their rationale for the development.

http://noctondairies.co.uk/

[Johnboy]

Well Just to add to it all, last night on BT/Yahoo news they were trying to tell us that to drink milk will lead to ovarian cancer. The news was unattributed and it bloody well annoyed me. There are those who attempt to scare people into their way of thinking and this is again a case of scaring!
I wonder just how many of the objectors have the foggiest idea what animal welfare is. You cannot get milk from an unhappy cow because if they are not treated correctly they fail to lactate properly.
There are so many people who have not got any idea about animal husbandry those who will object because they object to change of any sort.
British people want cheap milk and cheap everything and the small dairy has had it's day. I buy my milk from a dairy that is now recognized as small which has over 250 lactating cows. It is fighting hard to stay in business.
It matters not how many cows you have assembled it's how you treat them when they are assembled.
An example is the way this county, where I live, treat Polytunnels.
Those apposing say there is too much polythene and soon there will be more Polythene than green fields. The county survey says 0.027% is covered with polythene. The wind turbines proposed in this parish got planning permission but the objectors held a meeting here and people came from over 200 miles away to support the anti wind turbine cause.
The permission had to then be passed on to a higher authority.
Just let farmers do what they have to do to give you the British Public your cheap food.
Do not be fooled by professional objectors who are the bane of this country!
JB.

[Tony Hague]

No, I do not want this happening to make my milk cheaper, any more than I want hens to live in battery farms to make my eggs cheaper, or chickens to be kept in packed barns to make my chicken cheaper. Some things are not right, and if it is clearly labelled, I will pay a higher price for milk not produced in this way, just like I pay a higher price for eggs and chicken produced to statndards I find acceptable.

Just let farmers do what they have to do to give you the British Public your cheap food.

Anyone for Soylent Green ?

[JohnN]

Wow - Soylent Green! One of my favourite films; the thought of the bit with James Cagney (or was it Edward G Robinson?) watching the film of the deer in the woods still brings a lump to my throat.

[Primrose]

Somebody has just given me the link to a petition to ban shark finning in the EU if anybody wants it:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/a-publ ... in-the-eu/

I missed this programme in the Fish series as I was out, but a couple of people who saw it told me it was pretty horrible. I think some of us are having our eyes opened to the harsh realities of the way some of our food is provided. I think I too would rather pay a little more for my food and know that it has arrived on my plate in the most humane way possible.

[Johnboy]

Hi Tony,
Quote:
Just let farmers do what they have to do to give you the British Public your cheap food.
I stand by that statement because British farmers are the closest regulated farmers in Europe and contrary to what is frequently said they do not abuse their animals.
What is it that you know more about animal husbandry than a dairy farmer?
The system works and because you, an engineer, do not like it is neither here nor there. There is no cruelty to the animals. Again I will say that you cannot get milk out of a dissatisfied cow because they simply will not lactate properly.
Perchery systems for egg production are a failure because the birds will not go outside but no doubt you will buy free range eggs produced under this system.
Cage systems should have been banned many years ago and so should have broiler systems. The permitted stocking densities of poultry in UK is only half that of the rest of Europe for egg production yet we import millions of eggs produced in Europe because of their stocking density and that is putting the British farmer at a disadvantage.
It is a fact that the days of the small farmer are almost at an end and with all the regulations and the interference by the government and local authorities many farmers are choosing to pack up farming here and go and farm elsewhere, Canada and New Zealand seem to be the best places to go.
JB.

[alan refail]

Leaving aside the drift for a while and getting back to fish, a couple of points worth considering:

On the subject of cruelty - I have always assumed that the vast majority of fish are killed by being pulled out of their natural environment in nets and being allowed to gasp themselves to death on ships' decks.

On the subject of alternative choices - We went to our local fishmongers yesterday. I jokingly suggested he was doing his personal bit for fish conservation, judging by the very poor choice available. His reply was that he had been at the fish market only to be told that apart from mackerel no "alternative" fish had been sent to market.

[alan refail]

...and another thought. I suspect that some changes in fish stocks are due to changes in the habits of the fish themselves. What happened to the annual shoals of herring - the "silver darlings" of the east coast of Scotland and England?

In the west, too, they were a major industry. The small town of Nefyn on the north coast of Llŷn supported a great herring fleet and the catch was salted or hawked through the villages and towns of Caernarfonshire with the cry (in local dialect):

"Penwaig Nefyn, penwaig Nefyn
'u cefna fel cefna hen ffarmwrs
a'u bolia fel bolia tafarnwrs.
Penwaig ffres."

Nefyn herrings Nefyn herrings
backs like old farmers' backs
bellies like innkeepers' bellies.
Fresh herrings.

They were so plentiful that cartloads were bought by farmers for use as fertiliser.

[Tony Hague]

What is it that you know more about animal husbandry than a dairy farmer?
The system works and because you, an engineer, do not like it is neither here nor there.

It is little to do with my knowledge of animal husbandry, and a lot to do with my knowledge of business. A business exists to maximise shareholder profit. And that will only take into account animal welfare if customers (like me) want it, or legislation forces it. Otherwise the animals will be maintaned in the most "efficient" way possible.

With regards animal welfare, I once presented, as part of an overview, the work of some colleagues on a poultry harvester to the staff and students at a reseach institute in Japan. This thing used a conveyor with rubber fingers to gently "sweep up" chickens from the floor of a broiler house (conventional practice it that they are grabbed by blokes in wellies and shoves into crates, often getting broken bones in the process). I was greeted by a sea of astonished faces.

"What is this for ? why do you need it ? I was asked.
"Its kinder to the birds" I answered.
"But you're about to kill them anyway, they aren't going to like that are they ?"

The system works - well (returning to fish) I guess that the east Asians lopping the fins of live sharks probably find that system works for them too. The scarecity helps to keep up prices and their profits, and the expense gives self indulgent diners and flamboyant hosts a sense of satisfaction. Everyone is happy, no ? Should we leave them alone too ?

[John Walker]

@Johnboy

There is no cruelty to the animals. Again I will say that you cannot get milk out of a dissatisfied cow because they simply will not lactate properly.

Cows are biologically programmed to produce milk after the birth of their calf. I would be interested to see any scientific evidence that they won't produce milk simply because they are 'dissatisfied'.

I think you might be muddling up these kind and gentle beasts with human beings, whose productivity does fall if they are fed up with their jobs. Doubtless cows could be genetically tinkered around with to remove any profit-sapping motherly instinct, but it's a pretty gruesome thought.

They may well not 'lactate properly' but that's hardly surprising given mother and offpsring are separated within minutes of birth. I've worked on a small family dairy farm. All cows have their own personalities: some will nuzzle up and let you scratch their noses while others won't come within 30 feet of you. I've seen distraught cows calling for their missing young and I've tried to force feed colostrum (the first very protein- and antibody-rich milk a cow produces) into new-born calves only to watch some eventually die.

To say there is no cruelty is to suggest that all dairy farmers are saints. It just isn't the case for the reason Tony Hague explains. Choosing organic milk (produced by a co-operative venture rather than a shareholder driven megabusiness) is probably the most ethically and ecologically sound way of ensuring that dairy cattle live the best lives they can.

Perhaps it's time for Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall to move on to a Big Milk Fight. Now looking at the production of milk, organic or not, would turn heads. Separation of cow and calf would doubtless draw gasps of dismay.

[Primrose]

Here's a little test for everybody to see whether you can do better than the Fisheries Minister in identifying fish species.
Ashamed to admit I only recognised 6, so I'd better get back to my Observer's Book of Fishes pretty quickly!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -fish-quiz

[Monika]

OMG, I only got three right! Just shows that I buy my fish ready filleted and skinned or even frozen!
I am very ashamed.