Heritage versus new varieties

[KG Emma]

We have a new feature starting in the January issue of Kitchen Garden where a topic is debated by Bob Sherman and Edwin Oxlade. We would like to include a few comments from readers. The first topic to be aired is Heritage varieties versus new varieties.
Do you think it is important we keep all the old varieties going? Are newer varieties not better because they have superseded the old? What are your views?

[alan refail]

Morning Milady

There are already some comments in this fairly recent thread:-

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8773

[peter]

Keep the diversity, the differences might become important.

[Nature's Babe]

Hi Lady lettuce. My main gripe with with modern varieties is they seem to be developed for the big commercial growers who have different priorities to the home grower, eg commercial growers want a uniform attractive product that can be harvested quickly and easily and profitably, that travels well, they are more concerned with eye appeal than taste and nutrition. As a home grower, I want taste, tenderness, productivity over a longcropping period, variety and disease resistence, seasonal delights - not the same old thing year round. I keep an open mind and buy mostly varieties I like from heritage or modern. on balance more heritage for taste and variety reasons. I agree with Peter, variety and diversity is more important., commercial profitability has squeezed out a lot of different worthy varieties.

[Shallot Man]

I personally try to buy anything bar F1, these are too expensive, most crop at the same time, no good if you are only taking home one cabbage at a time. F1's are very expensive. Give me old or new varieties any time, as long as they are not F1.

[Primrose]

I do agree that commercial growers seem to be squeezing out some of the older varieties and the joy of growing your own is that you're able to pick and choose according to your own tastes for flavour, size and other features. As has already been said F1's are expensive and you can't save seed from them and be sure you're going to get an identical plant the following year, so I do think it's important to have a combination of both Heritage and Modern varieties to choose from.

[Mike Vogel]

One important point in favour of the old varieties is that they will breed true from saved seed. Otherwise, Natrues Babe has given a fairly concise account of why the new varieties have come to be so predominant - not because they are better but because they are more predictable for the commercial grower, who can harvest a whole crop at once and clear the field for the next crop quickly. The old varieties tend not to crop all at once.

[Johnboy]

Hi Mike,
I think that you are wrong on several counts. You have the idea that all F1 seeds act the same. Certainly there are some modern F1's that are bred especially for the commercial market but a great many in the modern catalogues have F1's that are a greatly improved seed more vibrant higher germination and a better finish product altogether.
The varieties that are commercial and have been bred are generally only cabbages. And if you sow seed all at the same time they generally mature at the same time even with open pollinated varieties. The art of gardening is to sow at intervals to prevent this occurring and this comes with experience so if you pursue the wrong policy when sowing you will end up with the harvest all together. That is not the seeds fault it is the gardeners.
Certainly there are some seeds in the Heritage banks that are well worth growing and there is some absolute rubbish.
We still have certain seeds still in the modern catalogues that were around in the 1800's and they are there purely on merit.
There are still plenty of open pollination varieties in the current catalogues
especially where the cabbage family are concerned without resorting to the Heritage Varieties and these OP varieties are generally improved seed.
Before you buy a Heritage seed you must first ask yourself why they have ended up there in the first place.
JB.

[Nature's Babe]

Johnboy I notice you said you chose one of the old fashioned varieties of tomato, gardeners delight and you said it used to be a larger tomato but is now is classed as cherry size. So why not grow one of the new varieties you extol ? I agree with Mike, and go for the more flavoursome varieties with a distinct identity, and good sweet sharp balance, smokey or old fashioned tomato flavour - and like apples, when did they breed out the smell? The nose on a fruit adds to the pleasure of the taste. Not everyone likes the supermarket uniform product, in fact a lot are quite tough to bite into because they are bred to be firm and to travel well.
Oh and peas, modern varieties are all designed short for machine picking,
whereas the tall varieties keep cropping if we keep picking for a long period. to be fair a few seed producers do seem to have the home gardener in mind, I have seen a few packs containing a few varieties that will extend the cropping time, most who garden for a while quickly learn to plant little and often early mid season and late varieties, but its nice to get some help from the seed companies too, one pack of mixed lettuce for example, rather than buying lots of packs to mix.

[alan refail]

Here are copies of my comments from the earlier thread:

I have grown a great number of heritage/heirloom varieties over the years, mostly from HDRA Heritage Seed Library, but some from commercial seed merchants.

Just a few of my experiences:

French Beans: Many good varieties from HSL, the best being Ryder's Top of the Pole - a very quick climber making long pods of meaty beans which stay stringless for longer than most. At maturity produces large white beans for shelling and freezing.
Many others from HSL disappointing and soon stringy.
The Prince: an old dwarf bean, available from most commercial seedsmen; quick and grows well late in the season.

Tomatoes: Most of the larger fruited heritage/heirloom have proved tasty but more prone to disease than modern varieties. Little can beat F1 Sungold.

Potatoes: Most of the oldest varieties I have grown have been very good, except such "rarities" as Congo and Highland Burgundy Red.

Courgettes and squashes: old Italian varieties of courgette (Lungo Bianco, Nero di Milano etc) have been excellent. Of pumpkins there is nothing to beat F1 Crown Prince.

I could go on (and on!), but what are your thoughts?




Although a long-standing member of the Heritage Seed Library - I have grown more old varieties than I can shake a pea-stick at - I remain very wary of the use of the words "heirloom" and "heritage". It may just be a result of my natural cynicism, but they seem to be used as though they invest the plants with some sort of automatic or mysterious superiority over "modern" or "new" varieties. It smacks too much of the use of fashionable buzz-words in advertising - currently "green", "eco-friendly", "sustainable" seem to be well up the list. But there I go - cynicism again!

Varieties have been lost for a number of reasons:

a) because they are of poor quality, disease-prone etc. These deserve to be consigned to horticultural history

b) because they fall out of fashion for one reason and another. If they are good varieties they deserve a chance to be reassessed and grown

c) because they have been deleted from seed companies lists due to the high cost of maintaining them (registration fees, low sales volume etc). The best of these deserve to be maintained

[Nature's Babe]

Alan, I agree, with you the best deserve to be maintained, that is why I am in favour of HSL, they do a vegetable adoption scheme, which helps support this. Even the less deserving may have some qualities that might improve another variety, so I'm all for keeping diversity. It seems most here choose personal favourites from both old and new.

[Johnboy]

Hi NB,
If you read my posting properly you will note that Tomatoes are not even mentioned at all. For your future reference the Tomatoes I grow are Harbinger, Ailsa Craig and Gardeners Delight (original seed) and if you can find a posting of mine that extols modern Tomato varieties publish it and be damned!
This is how you and I almost fall out at times because you publish what you think that is relevant to you, which has no bearing on the subject in hand. To my way of thinking you must confine yourself to postings within the thread not what was said in another thread altogether maybe 18 months ago.
Unlike you I am diverse in my seeding habits. You wont buy this that and the other because of various constraints due to your way of thinking.
You talk of being diverse then list anything new as a load of rubbish which proves you are anything but diverse. Make your mind up!
JB.

[Nature's Babe]

Johnboy I never said anything new was a load of old rubbish, the problem is you make assumptions which are not true as you have just done and then jump down my throat. We are all entitlled to our own opinions. I simply remembered you mentioned gardeners delight on a previous post because I was interested that you said they used to be larger. If you could see my seeds for next year you would appreciate I have a very diverse selection, some old varieties, some new, some rare, some I saved, some wild flower seeds, some for wild life, and a few f1's. Actually I do try new things and have an open mind and I don't feel threatened if someone else has different ideas, it is you who seem to react to such things. Actually your comment

To my way of thinking you must confine yourself to postings within the thread not what was said in another thread altogether maybe 18 months ago.

makes me feel like you wish to control my comments.
Actually in the interests of peace in this forum I had been trying to avoid posting on your threads, and only replied politely when you specifically asked for a reply from me, I have no wish to disrupt lady lettuces thread. Can we live and let live - please

[Johnboy]

Natures Babe,
You do not seem to understand that whereas I know what you are on about some of the time but if you post something totally unrelated concerning the thread to which you are replying other people have not got the foggiest idea what you are on about.
I am not trying to control your comments I am trying to inject some common sense into the proceedings.
Comments like, "So why not grow some of the modern Tomato Varieties you extol." are inflammatory because I do not and never have extolled new varieties of Tomatoes. Gardeners Delight is not an old variety it was I believe in the late 1960's but Harbinger and Ailsa Craig are fairly old varieties.
I am not against Heritage or Heirloom varieties but I would never treat them as my main crop of the year without first trialing them the previous year. I will repeat there may well be some superb varieties mixed into these collection but be assured there is an awful lot that should be in the bin where they belong.
There is a great misunderstanding where modern seeds are concerned and it may well be true that you cannot collect seeds from a great many especially the F1 varieties. So you have to buy new seed each year to me that is no hardship and if you garden with then properly then they represent no problems. It is simply a different pattern of growing which is not rocket science but if people are not prepared to even try to understand F1's then quite frankly that is their loss. Nobody can be forced to grow anything they do not want to so where is the problem.
JB.

[Nature's Babe]

As I said Johnboy, I have no wish to disrupt this thread.