Rudolf Steiner

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
I think that Tony has just about hit the nail on the head when all else fails invoke 'the emperor's clothes'!
JB.

[alan refail]

But seriously, look at Steiner's work in the link Alan posted above. If you have any sort of critical faculty at all, I don't see how your mind can remain receptive and respectful of his work.

Indeed, Tony. I wonder how many Steiner supporters/believers could get this through their critical faculties and remain "receptive and respectful" of anything else he said/wrote!

“On one side we find the black race, which is earthly at most. If it moves to the West, it becomes extinct. We also have the yellow race, which is in the middle between earth and the cosmos. If it moves to the East, it becomes brown, attaches itself too much to the cosmos, and becomes extinct. The white race is the future, the race that is creating spirit.” [Rudolf Steiner, VOM LEBEN DES MENSCHEN UND DER ERDE {On the Life of Human Beings and of the Earth} (Verlag Der Rudolf Steiner-Nachlassverwaltung, 1961), p. 62.]

[alan refail]

...then again, it looks as though we might be in trouble for considering any "belief" "stupid"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/t ... tupid.html

[John Walker]

For those with more receptive and respectful minds, more contemporary information on biodynamic agriculture and gardening can be found at

http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/index.php

Yes, John, "more contemporary", and worthy of consideration, but not entirely freed from Steinerian claptrap: cf "Further to this biodynamic farmer recognizes that the life of a farm is exposed to wider as well as internal farm-based influences. The more subtle rhythms associated with the sun, the moon and the planets form the basis of an annually produced planting calendar. This guides the farmer towards appropriate times for cultivation and sowing for maximum quantity and quality."

For those with more receptive and respectful minds...

Why is it that those, like you (and the followers of most religions), who believe the unprovable, use this sort of patronising put-down as an alternative to logical argument when someone questions their "beliefs"? I really do find this objectionable, though I am not offended by it.

Claptrap: absurd talk or nonsensical ideas.

You seem happy to offer this put-down to biodynamics, but appear affronted by the very idea of there being anything of merit other than the 'provable', or that anyone dare have the audacity to suggest that some posters phrase their views a little more respectfully. Does it matter that those who garden biodynamically might feel affronted when told that what they do is claptrap?

If the point of this thread was to trash Rudolph Steiner/biodynamics - and by association the Soil Association - then I guess it could be deemed a 'success'. But if it was set up to foster a rigorous, respectful debate of biodynamic theory and practice, then so far it is, sadly, an abject failure.

[alan refail]

Hi John

I fully accept your points. However, could you explain what planets affect planting and how? Sun, and to a lesser extent moon, I understand. Sounds a little too much like astrology to me.

Alan

[Shallot Man]

Following this vein I feel that Rudolf Steiner has a lot to answer to this forum.

[alan refail]

If the point of this thread was to trash Rudolph Steiner/biodynamics - and by association the Soil Association - then I guess it could be deemed a 'success'. But if it was set up to foster a rigorous, respectful debate of biodynamic theory and practice, then so far it is, sadly, an abject failure.

I suspect that the majority of people who trust the SA certification logo (and I think I count myself as one) do not know the history of the organisation or its links to Steiner/biodynamics. The SA wisely has moved on into a "realer" world.
On your second point I would be interested to see your explanation of biodynamic practice.

To set such debate in context:

Demeter gives 4,237 hectares as the area of land in the UK under biodynamic regimes.

This compares to a total of about 17,500,000 hectares total agricultural land in the UK.

[edited to add the following]
This, if my maths are correct, means that 0.024% of agricultural land in the UK is farmed biodynamically. This is statistically negligible.

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
Browsing through the second website in your posting I can across this;

Rainfall in Britain exceeds the rate of evaporation. This means that in freely drained areas, soil base material is washed away, which leads to a higher concentration of organic acids in the ground. Thus many British soils are quite acidic, and a large proportion of British farm land needs repeated applications of alkalines (traditionally lime) to remain fertile.

I appreciate that Rudolf Steiner is nothing to do with this but simply wonder what Nature's Babe will make of it.
JB.

[richard p]

cant recall when or where i last saw a lime spreader... it certainly aint common practice in this neck of the woods....however i have spent many hours removing lumps of limestone from both fields and garden..... if we need a shed floor we just plough a field and go pick up the stones.

[peter]

I'd rainfall did not exceed the rate of evaporation then the land will become desert, if it was exactly equal the rivers would dry up.

[Mike Vogel]

When I was at school I used to help out in the holidays at "The Sheilings", a home for disturbed children and those which we now refer to as "having learning difficuilties" which was run on Steinerian lines. The children were happy and secure there and the adults were exceptionally caring, in ways I had never had occasion to witness before. However, I saw nothing there which would not occur under any equally caring regime. I believe it was the care, not the specific form, which made the difference for those children. The mystcism was, frankly, a turn-off.

A doctor there tried to treat my chronic asthma, which would be periodically inflamed when in contact with fur and feathers, homoeopathically. It had absolutely no effect at all on my condition.

Biodynamic growing works. You can see it at the Garden Organic gardens at Ryton. Acupuncture also works, and complementary therapies such as Reflexology are even recommended by thoroughly scientific oncologists. WHY these methods work is not known to science and in most cases conventional medicine will work just as well. It is the CARE that accompanies the therapy coupled with a good dose of the placebo effect, which is not to disparage it. Biodynamic gardening will work if the gardener CARES, and so will any other method.

[Johnboy]

Liming is quite commonplace hereabouts. We have probably a far larger rainfall than Somerset so probably need more Lime.
I think what is meant by 'the rainfall exceeds the rate of evaporation' is that there is a constant movement of water through the soil (drainage) which will to a degree leech certain things from the soil. Certainly the reverse would be desert conditions.
JB.

[peter]

JB yes that makes sense in that context.
Isn't that the process that in some soils leads to what is called an "iron pan", a solid thin layer of concretion made up of minerals washed down through the soil and caught at a particular depth?

Valuing your opinion, at what point/depth does leaf litter cease to be dead leaves and become part of topsoil, I would say when it could support a plant.

Question sort of stems from what I learnt on one of Mr Attenboroughs programmes, about an Australian gum forest where the authorities prevented the aboriginal people from regularly burning the leaf litter. This litter built up and the next naturally caused fire killed many trees because there was now enough fuel (deep dry leaf litter) to burn long and hot enough to kill the gumtree roots and thus bugger up what turned out to be a very complex entirely manmade ecosystem based on regular and thus "lightweight" bush fires. An entirely different more jungle like environment began to take over in the heavily burnt areas. So in that particular context the maintenance of an open large tree based forest, the combustion product i.e. clear forest floor with some ash and heat treated gum seeds was of more value than the decomposition products.
All that this story proves is that this really is not a one size fits all sort of world.

[alan refail]

Biodynamic growing works.

I agree with all the points you wisely make about Steinerian care. My main contact has been with agriculture at Botton village. What I saw was a labour-intensive, highly productive organic set-up. It worked because of the use of large amounts of composted farmyard manure. I think I would be right in saying that there is plenty of scientific/experimental evidence to show what effect this has. I cannot imagine that it would have been a less successful system without the "preparations" and the obscure mysticism about planetary influences. I think I would be right in saying that there exists no objective scientific evidence to support these beliefs/practices.

edited to add:

I find the same views are expressed here...
http://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/biodynamics

[Cider Boys]

Peter/Johnboy

Regarding rainfall and Lime spreading, it depends in which parts of Somerset you consider. Rainfall is around 28 inches per year on the Levels whilst just to the North on the Mendips it is 43 inches and I think they still spread lime regularly there. Rainfall on the higher moors/hills such as Exmoor have some of the highest rainfalls in the Country. On the Chains on Exmoor it averages 79 inches.

Barney