'Organic has no health benefits'

[glallotments]

PAN don't agree with the no point eating organic statement either

http://www.pan-uk.org/Projects/Food/index.htm

[Cider Boys]

There are many good points favouring the eating of organically grown food. As previously stated I'd prefer a ripe,scabby, mishapen apple than an apple that had been sprayed.

As for livestock, certainly the wellfare of pigs kept under organic methods is far better than intensive indoor schemes.

Barney

[Geoff]

Do you know the rules for labelling pork, Barney? Above us they raise what is sold as "Bowland Outdoor Reared Pork", which I think you can find advertised on the Internet, but we walk past the establishment (a large farm building) regularly and have never seen a pig. The meat is excellent but the description bothers me, it makes you think of arks and muddy fields.

[Shallot Man]

Geoff. Why not run it bye the Council Trading Standards.

[Cider Boys]

Hello Geoff

An interesting question that I don't have the answer to. Perhaps they say outdoor reared pigs, but then finish them indoors.

We have a few Bershires and Gloucester Old Spots and they are certainly being finished outside in Arks and of course plenty of mud.

The problem is that it costs a lot to finish them this way feeding them cereal pig nuts `because they run about so much playing oudoors and you can no longer feed them swill due to the negligence of a minority. If you finish them indoors they are restricted and come up to weight quicker.

I guess it is that they were farrowed outside and finished indoors but do not know for sure.

All the best

Barney

[Mike Vogel]

I trhink what I have to say on this topic has been said by one contributor or another. I would only like to repeat the observation that the report has said that the difference in NUTRITIONAL value is insignificant but has not commented on the effects of artificial chemicals, weedkillers and pesticides, which were not, presumably, the subject of the research topic.

[PLUMPUDDING]

Also the report about the nutritional differences was based on old information and didn't include all the information from more recent studies showing that organic fruit, veg and milk had significantly more vitamins and minerals.

As you say most of us are of a similar opinion on the values of eating and growing organic food.

I wonder how much the survey has cost the Food Standards Agency, and also how the brief was worded that they gave to this chap in the first place. It said in the Independent yesterday that he has been quite upset by the heated response to his findings from people from all walks of life - some of them even threatening violence.

[pixley]

I was very disappointed to read Peter Seabrook's opinion in Amateur Gardening (Aug 8 issue). He says "The steady promotion over recent years of organic principles, raised beds and no-digging is certainly taking its toll. Newcomers to growing-their-own are well advised to follow the long established and well proven methods from the outset. Once these are achieved, switch to the more difficult organic and no-dig methods if you wish but dont start out with these additional barriers to success

I am a newbie veg gardener having finally got a garden big enough for more than a couple of pots. I have started out organically because until i get some better evidence that all those chemicals are safe for me, my family and my planet i dont wish to eat or use them. It may be more time consuming if that is what he means by difficult. I am on a one woman crusade to rid my garden of mares tail and it is a lifetimes work without glyphosate but then i didnt take up gardening to be a high speed sport. Part of the joy of my garden is to potter slowly and to remember what it is like to have time to think. Unlike those who just reach for an instant pot of toxic waste i have to work, wait and let nature find her own balance. I dont get to eat all my crops and they certainly arent perfect but i KNOW they have no chemicals and have not damaged the environment in anyway. If i am going to go to the trouble of growing my own at least i know the end results are better in every way than what is in a supermarket.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but i strongly believe that we all need to think about the long term future for all of us on this planet and a bit less about no work instant gratification. Until we invented chemicals we managed to feed ourselves without them.

[Tigger]

Unfortunately, I find most of Peter Seabrook's advice disappointing. He's a huge supporter of the use of peat, regardless of whether it's managed sustainably.

[Geoff]

Quite right Pixley "Until we invented chemicals we managed to feed ourselves without them". If we go back to the population we had then most of the environmental problems would go away. The only real pandemic is us!

[Mike Vogel]

My fdriends in Harrogate have recently been converted to the Fukuoka methods [F. is a person]. You can see youtube footage of his farming style, which involves much much deeper mulching than ever I've dreamt of. I dare say if you type "Fukuoka" into Google you'll find the items. You start with this enormously deep mulch to stifle weed growth and then plant through it.

This means that you can cultivate part of your allotment normally to start with and pile on the mulch in other parts where you'll grow next year. Eventually the whole area can be converted to this no-dig, no-compost method, as the produce which you and I would compost is just laid on the bed as a mulch. He gets high yields and the aim is not to import anything that the site doesn't itself produce. I'll never get to be that successful as an organic grower. But then, his is a farm, not an allotment.

[Johnboy]

Hi Pixley,
I am so sorry that you as a newcomer to growing find the comments of one of this country's finest growers disappointing. Is this yet another case of the young trying to tell the elderly that they have been doing it all wrong for about 60 years. I fear that it is.
The methods referred to by Peter Seabrook have evolved over the last 200 years and as science progresses so does horticulture except where those who are too strictly Organic are concerned.
I was organic for over 40 years until the Soil Association decided to make a dirty word out of the word 'organic.'
I do not use pesticides but I do not rule them out. The use of man made fertilizers only replicate those that are found in the soil and it is fine to say use your own made compost when most gardeners cannot make anywhere near enough for their needs. Perhaps as you progress through the years growing you may find out that there are several instances when chemicals, reluctantly, are necessary. Whether you use them is entirely up to you.
I would suggest that what you have found disappointing in Peter Seabrook's comments are very sound comments and you should grasp the basics of growing before you start to run before you can walk.
Just learn the basics, which can be organically applied, and when you have mastered those then and only then should you consider any other form of growing.
JB.

[alan refail]

Hi Pixley

A warm welcome to the forum. It is refreshing to read your enthusiastic views and your organic approach to food growing, and I wish you every success.

Johnboy

Is this yet another case of the young trying to tell the elderly that they have been doing it all wrong for about 60 years

The older generation have got many things wrong in years gone by, and I don't mean just growing It is healthy for the young to question our assumptions (and then get things wrong in their turn )

Mike Vogel
Thanks for the mention of Masanobu Fukuoka. His "One straw revolution" is inspirational reading, though perhaps hard to put into practice.
For anyone interested in learning more have a look at this website.

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
Certainly it is perfectly legitimate for the younger to question the older folk and yes many things that have occurred in years gone by obviously mistakes made by by older folk but then the young have the luxury of viewing in hindsight.
It is no good to simply condemn something with very little knowledge to back it up. Perhaps Pixley might like to ponder on the use of Chemicals used in Organic growing which she is obviously oblivious to.
You are aware that I grow pragmatically and having been Organic for donkey's years realised that organics were going wrong under the leadership of The Soil Association.
I am very happy with the fact that Pixley has chosen to garden organically but what she really must do is take on board the basics which is what Peter Seabrook was saying, no more no less. Get yourself established as a grower before you try to go on to other methods of growing.
Peter Seabrook is a pragmatic person and his advice comes from many years working in professional horticulture. He has his finger on everything right up to date and he unlike many organic writers who deal in pseudo-facts, myth and legend and unproven theories. What that man says makes perfect sense!
JB.

[alan refail]

organic writers who deal in pseudo-facts, myth and legend and unproven theories

Hi Johnboy

I think that's pushing it a bit far, unless you could back up your assertion with some plausible examples, so that new "organic" gardeners could decide whether to agree with you or not.