Dow chemicals and Forefront

[hilary]

Hi,
Just thought it may interest those of us who were following the earlier discussion on use of herbicides which then left a residue in manure etc. that Dow agrochemicals have suspended the use of aminopyralids, they do not specifically say Forefront but I know that our local farmer says that he has had to return it. He is not happy since they sprayed the fields which were then grazed by cattle and the slurry then returned to the land not a problem for cereals but what about the other crops? Thanks to the early information on this forum I have stopped collecting manure from our stables since I know that the fields were sprayed for nettles and dock early on this year and it seemed wise not to use it until I found out what was being used - Forefront!!
I know that some local authorities have been composting the vegetation from verges etc they earlier sprayed - best only to compost home grown waste I reckon.
Hilary

[PLUMPUDDING]

Hi Hilary, Thanks for this information. It is good to know they are recalling this chemical. Yet another one that they say is "safe" that is proved not to be. They must be scared stiff of being sued for all the damage they've caused this year.

[Johnboy]

Plumpudding,
Once again you have got it wrong. It is because people do not read the approval for use licence details. Aminopyralid used strictly to the licence is safe. The label clearly lists the limitations for use. Anything to do with Aminopyralid should not have got anywhere near the gardening sector.
I am hoping that the licence gets completely revoked and the product banned from use within the UK but it is not Dow Agrochemicals who have committed any offences but farmers who have passed grass products on to others without telling them that Aminopyralid has been used on the crop. It is for this reason that I am totally against the use of the product.
I do not see that it is possible for powers that be to enforce the use of Aminopyralid in accordance with the licence that they have issued.
It is always the abuse of chemicals that is at fault and the use as licenced and tested safe.
JB.

[PLUMPUDDING]

I am not wrong at all - It is wrong to allow animals to eat pasture that has been treated with weedkiller whether the chemical companies say it is safe or not.

[Johnboy]

Hi Plumpudding,
Grazing animals on treated grassland is perhaps something you dislike but that doesn't make it wrong.
I happen to make an awful lot of high quality hay which is sold to the equestrian sector. I do not generally use any weedkiller at all but there are localised areas that have to be treated occasionally. I certainly wouldn't use any Aminopyralid product but do use small quantities of Roundup and reseed these areas. I do not have any livestock myself but I do lease out winter grazing for sheep who are all part and parcel of producing the hay. These are generally hill lambs that come down prior to slaughter next spring.
The Aminopyralids have been licenced because they do not affect the animals that graze the treated areas
and I am afraid that this does put you in the wrong.
JB.

[richard p]

surely theres a world of difference between a simple weedkiller that is active for hours possibly a few days at most with the animals eating the treated grass AFTER the active chemicle has broken down and feeding animals on grass where the weedkiller is STILL ACTIVE.

would anyone here like to claim that they would eat a cabbage knowing it had a still active weed killer on it.???

[Johnboy]

Hi Richard,

would anyone here like to claim that they would eat a cabbage knowing it had a still active weed killer on it.???

Arsenic is present in most of the vegetables sold whether Conventional or Organic but what would you do about that. The answer is nothing because the dosage is so small as to make no difference to the animal or human bodies consuming it. The same with aminopyrlid. I do not know the exact mixture strength but it would be far below anything that will cause health hazards to animals or humans or it simply would not get approval.
I reiterate that it is not the use of chemicals that is so bad but the misuse.
JB.

[Parsons Jack]

Hi Richard,

would anyone here like to claim that they would eat a cabbage knowing it had a still active weed killer on it.???

Arsenic is present in most of the vegetables sold whether Conventional or Organic but what would you do about that. The answer is nothing because the dosage is so small as to make no difference to the animal or human bodies consuming it. The same with aminopyrlid. I do not know the exact mixture strength but it would be far below anything that will cause health hazards to animals or humans or it simply would not get approval.I reiterate that it is not the use of chemicals that is so bad but the misuse.
JB.

Hi JB,

Do you know this as a fact, or is it just an assumption based on your farming background?

[Lurganspade]

Would anyone here like to claim that they would eat a cabbage knowing it had a still active weed killer on it.???

Another question!


Would anyone here like to claim that they would take orally or have injected any of the following "deadly chemicals" in their bodies?
Morphine
Belladonna
Arsenic
Strychnine or
Warafarin.

Well,they all are or have been used as normal medical treatments, and many, many lives they have saved and pain eased by their use.
Those who spend their lives saying they would not take or use this or that chemical, and would not allow others to use legally,well everything on this earth is composed of "chemicals."

[PLUMPUDDING]

You obviously agree with me on this one, Johnboy as you say you certainly wouldn't use Aminopyralid on pasture. I used the general term herbicide as I couldn't think how to spell Aminopyralid. We are all entitled to our opinions and feelings about things and this particular chemical is one that I feel should not have been used at all. As I've said before, just because it doesn't poison the animal that eats it, doesn't mean it is safe, and this has caused a huge amount of problems with its residual effect in the manure. Does the company give assurances that meat and milk is also safe from cattle grazed on this? Fair enough you say the company selling it mentioned the dodgy manure in the small print, but it was obviously not noticed by the majority of farmers using the stuff or it wouldn't have caused such mayhem.


I'm not anti science and I also use Roundup on paths and areas not growing crops but I feel the chemical companies put things on the market as some wonderful new solution to problems, when there are plenty of cheap, safe and effective alternatives.

Think how many chemicals have been removed as "unsafe" over the past few years which were promoted as the best thing since sliced bread when they were released.

They are in the business to make money and if they have spent millions developing something they aren't going to highlight potential problems when they are trying to sell it. That is why I am very wary of the whole set up.

[richard p]

JB please enlighten me Who deliberatly sprays cabbages intended for human consumption with arsenic and why? i wasnt aware it was common practice for either organic or conventional crops.

[Johnboy]

Hi Richard,
The answer is nobody sprays with Arsenic it is endemic in the soil. It is taken up by plants and it is far more poisonous than most of the chemicals used in Horticulture and is in a greater quantity than the man made substances used.
JB.

[richard p]

hi jb i dont recall there being a problem with people being poisoned by the trace amounts of naturally occuring arsenic in their vegetables. but there does appear to be a large problem with this deliberatly applied pesticide,
the point is we cant do a lot about poisons naturally occuring at low levels, but we can stop deliberatly inventing and using more dangerous ones.
at least that seems to be common sense to me , and a lot of other peaple

[Johnboy]

Richard,
Firstly, Aminopyralid is a HERBICIDE and not a PESTICIDE.
You are one of the people on this forum who deliberately use the word pesticide in order to accentuate the gravity of the situation. You have had this pointed out to you many times yet you continue to use the incorrect terms.
I, along with just about everybody else on this forum, want to see this HERBICIDE removed from the market. The reason I want this banned is because I do not see that the PSD will be able to control it!
There are too many inter-farm transactions which are impossible to control.
As you already know I grow Pragmatically which means Organic Plus Common Sense. I do not use chemicals to control pests but do not rule them out completely.
The only time I will use a pest control is if I consider that I am going to totally lose a crop.
I use my own common sense. I use Roundup, a herbicide, to control weeds because I am now getting to old for the heavy manual jobs around the plot.
My farming interest are governed by a Agronomist, who charges me a fortune, but so far has proved invaluable. It is he that determines what sprays are used and his employee that actually carries out the spraying. He also acts for many other small farms in the area. You might be pleased to know that he, as an Agronomist, is very much against Aminopyralid.
Most pesticides used on food crops are governed by IPM schemes and these are part and parcel of the rules laid down by Supermarkets and if not strictly adhered to will cost the grower probably his livelihood if he is found to be in breach.
These Integrated Pest Management Schemes mean that when the food actually reaches the Supermarket the residue of pesticide is probably no greater than the Arsenic picked up by the plant from the soil and in many cases less.
A classic example of this is where in this area two organic growers have totally lost their Potato crops
because they were too late with their spraying and the spray that they use, please remember, can contaminate the crop with Copper.
The 80 acres of Potatoes here have been sprayed in all 7 times with a FUNGICIDE spray that treats only the leaves and neutralises when it comes into contact with the soil. A far better method of control and please note considerably safer than the organic method.
I am not very pleased with the PSD over the Aminopyralid affair and feel that Parliament should be lobbied to take a look at the day to day affairs of the directorate and give them some 'teeth' which they seen to lack under the present arrangement.
With Aminopyralid if it had been used strictly as Dow Agrochemicals has laid down and agreed as part of the issuing of the licence then it is safe for purpose. I don't want it used and will do all in my powers to prevent a further licence being granted.
Now Richard, I cannot say any more. (thankfully I hear being uttered)
JB.

[alan refail]

Just a pedantic(?) point: a herbicide, like a fungicide etc etc is a pesticide.