Contaminated Manure

[PLUMPUDDING]

Was Alan being "tongue in cheek" when he said 'I'm sure we can trust the scientists ....?'

They sell all these supposed wonderful labour saving chemicals, after trialling them and then there are all these knock on effects they hadn't thought about.

That is why I'm very suspicious of GM, and herbicides and insecticides and chemical companies in general. Time and time again they say things are perfectly safe and then when we find out they aren't they've made their money and don't want to pay compensation or even admit it was their fault.

Another case for organic farming.

[alan refail]

Plumpudding

Yes

[Johnboy]

Hi Plumpudding,
It is not the case as you are putting it. If you read the thread that Alan found with Dow Agricultural Chemicals and you read the restrictions for the use of manure after use you will realise that what you have posted is untrue.
I don't like this chemical any more than you but please do not liken this to GM because the two subjects are totally unrelated.
JB.

[glallotments]

I emailed the RHS as on their blog they ask for anyone who thought they had used 'dodgy muck' to let them know. see http://mygarden.rhs.org.uk/blogs/vegper ... -muck.aspx
They confirm that the photos of our potatoes show classic hormone type weedkiller damage. They also confirm that they think it is due to the introduction of the herbicide that Alan gave info on. For those who understand these things it binds to the lignin in straw and grass, so that when the muck rots it is released and harms crops. They confirm that the labelling states manure from beasts fed or bedded on treated crops should not be used for horticultural crops and say that The Pesticide Safety Directorate is on the case.
They go on to say that the weedkiller in the soil should dissipate by next year, but in stacks of contaminated manure it may take two or more years to decay. They advise any left-over manure be returned to sender if possible for spreading on grass or corn.
No more manure on our plots in the future I am afraid.

[richard p]

before you ban all manure, check with the supplying farmer whether they have used this specific herbicide, i think you will find that very few farmers use it.

[glallotments]

Hi Richard,
Not a ban but the people on our site who have been affected have just lost confidence. It's a big deal to potentially lose a year's crops. How far back through the chain would we need to check. For instance in our case it is likely that the farmer who supplied the manure knew nothing about what had been used. I now have a contact address for the farmer so will be checking this out.
RHS have been back in touch and their Press Office is going to put out a press release and also they are putting details on their website.

[Johnboy]

Hi Gallotments,
Ignorance of the effects of a herbicide that you use is absolutely no defence. When you use any chemical spray you should be aware of the likely consequences.
Before you even select a chemical you should read-up on it and before even purchasing it.
I am glad to hear that RHS seem to be trying to do their best to raise public awareness to the possible hazards.
It is sad to think that there will be no more manure on your site but quite understand the loss of faith in it. It is all the sweat and toil thinking that you are going to have a bumper harvest and a disaster before you have even got the seeds out of the soil.
JB.

[glallotments]

Hi Johnboy,
That's exactly it - we were all very concerned when it seemed that no-one knew how long the residue would remain in the soil.
The Pesticide Safety Directorate have posted some information on their web site now including brand names of the herbicides to be aware of.
Another plot holder spoke to them yesterday but when asked if it was safe to eat crops affeced they replied that as tests had not been carried out they did not know. He then spoke to the manufacturer of the herbicides in question and a representative said that officially he couldn't advise either but personally he would eat affected crops. The worry is if they don't know whether it is safe to eat affected crops - do they know it is safe to drink milk and eat meat from livestock that have browsed the sileage. Maybe as a farmer you could cast some light as to the difference to reassure us. It surprises me that the safety of afteruse of sileage etc. is left reliant on someone passing on information down the chain of supply - it only needs one link to break.
I think we just need some publicity so people know the questions to ask suppliers of manure maybe Kitchen Garden magazine could help in that.

[Johnboy]

Hi Gallotments,
I feel that we should attempt to start a national campaign against the complete Dow range of Herbicides. I feel that it is a disgraceful state of affairs when a spokesman for the manufacturer cannot give any assurances as to any safety measures. I feel that the Pesticides Safety Directorate are as at fault here as the manufacturer because they are the ones who have granted the all important licence for use in the UK. I think that the Kitchen Garden Magazine could fall behind us on this particular subject. On the other hand it may not be in their remit.
The thing is how to we proceed?
I feel that we need the backing of the entire forum.
I am not against the use of chemicals in agriculture
Safely but think that in this particular case insufficient thought has gone into the thinking prior to the release to farmers. I do not know how long this range of chemicals has been available.
Certainly the explanations given to you are totally inadequate.
JB.

[richard p]

i have emailed the following to the pesticides directorate (information@psd.hse.gsi.gov.uk) will let you know when or if i get a response


" I understand that certain Dow chemical’s herbicides containing aminopyralid (forefront, pharaoh, banish,etc) carry a warning that the active ingredient is still active in the manure of cattle fed on grass treated with these products and will attack subsequent crops for several years. Is there any data on, or has there been any research into, contamination of milk produced by cows fed on grass/silage etc treated with these products, similarly has there been any research on contamination of meat in animals fed on fodder treated with these products and has there been any reports of birth defects in calves born to dairy cattle fed on crops treated with these products."


perhaps if we all email them with our concerns something will be noticed. once we have some response in writing it may be worth asking our mps to ask the minister of ag for a comment.

another possibility is to get the issue debated in the gardening/horticultural press then it might get noticed in the farming press, im sure a lot of farmers will be just as concerned as we are .. perhaps we all should email the farmers weekly asking relevant questions?

[alan refail]

Hi Plumpudding,
It is not the case as you are putting it. If you read the thread that Alan found with Dow Agricultural Chemicals and you read the restrictions for the use of manure after use you will realise that what you have posted is untrue.
I don't like this chemical any more than you but please do not liken this to GM because the two subjects are totally unrelated.
JB.

Johnboy

I hesitate to muddy the waters on what has turned out to be an extremely important concern, which certainly merits the widest publicity.
But I have to qualify your view that genetic modification and herbicides are "totally unrelated".
Dow are major players on the North American GM seed/pesticide scene, trading as Mycogen.
I assure you I offer this only in the interests of background information.

[glallotments]

More crops are gradually showing signs of damage including tomatoes, beans, rhubarb etc - I am posting them on our blog tonight or tomorrow morning.
The RHS agree that we should publicise as widely as possible as publicity is something that our plot holders want to achieve I had already asked them this. I have asked the RHS if I can quote their diagnosis if I start to talk to the press and once they agree (I hope) then I am going to start emailing around. As you say we need to get this in the public domain. I am also going to email any government department that I think ought to know. I would be great if everyone else starts asking questions too. Of the government, of the company and of the PSD. By the way the farmer hasn't responded yet.
Does anyone from Kitchen Garden magazine read this and if so can you say whether you can get involved. I would be happy to show someone around our site.

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
Lets get this enquiry going without muddying the waters. At present we are looking into the Dow range of herbicides. If, subsequently we find that these chemicals are used as the basis of their GM exploits then, if we can bring about a ban on aminopyralid,
their GM products will never see the light of day here.
I appreciate that you are anti-chemical at any cost and anti-GM at any cost but to take an entrenched position in this instance is not helpful.
Until proven otherwise what I said to Plumpudding holds fast.
You know nothing about Dow AgroSciences GM exploits at present and all you are doing is casting aspersions which again are not helpful.
Just for once try and concentrate on the job in hand which is to gather assurances about the use of aminopyralid. When we have achieved this then open the door to further research.
JB.

[richard p]

jb is right on this, we should concentrate on the one issue of the chemical, any mention of gm or anything else will just get us dissmissed as a bunch of greeny nutters.
been thinking overnight, i guess its possible for a crop of sweetcorn, treated with this manure to be grown without showing any signs, and be eaten while the chemical is still active.
if the crops on the allotment are only now showing signs of contamination, any lettuces, sring onions , cabbages etc allready harvested could contain the active ingredient, both dow and the pesticide directorate need to harrassed on this.

[glallotments]

From what I have been told - I think what happens - and I am not a scientist - is that the chemical bonds with the grass etc and them in the manure as the grass decomposes the chemical is released - this would maybe explain why gradually more crops are showing signs of distress.
We thought that maybe heavy rain or watering might flush the chemical through but one of our plot holders who spoke to Dow said that they told him that this wouldn't help.