Farming subsidies

[Jenny Green]

I was interested to read of the experience of New Zealand where farming subsidies were ended 20 years ago:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=050907B

It's my impression that farming is highly subsidised in Europe and the USA, to the detriment of Third World producers who cannot compete without a level playing field. What do others think?

[alan refail]

There was an eye-opening article in Observer Food Monthly on Sunday about how the US is dumping its excess (subsidised) corn in the guise of food aid, to the detriment of local farmers in the Third World. Long, but well worth a read.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmont ... 27,00.html

Alan

[Jenny Green]

Thanks for that Alan. That was really interesting. I'd read a while ago that the majority of American 'aid' is spent within America or on Americans. Just look at the money Halli-Burton (sorry, don't know how to spell it) is making in Iraq.
I agree with the article that food aid creates a culture of dependency and destroys local markets for food. On the other hand, though, the argument against giving money is that it ends up in the Swiss bank accounts of corrupt politicians and their dependents.
I think the answer is in 'teaching a man to fish'. Constructive projects to build self-sufficiency. Also empowering the poor so that they can stand up to corruption and injustice.
It's interesting to see at the bottom of the article that the major recipients in 1960 are no longer in a dependent position. Was Africa more self-sufficient then or did people not care about them.

[oldherbaceous]

Greed ruins everyting i'm afraid to say.

[madasafish]

I read the Grauniad article. Its statistics at the end are meaningless .. comparing % of aid 40 years ago with % now is typical dammed lying statistics.

I don't know or care what the real numbers are but remember Pakistan has been recipient of significant food aid due to recent earthquakes so I suspect the % are suspect.

Having said that, I agree it makes sense to encourage people to be self sufficient and the EC is a big bad offender here (and the Soil Association threatening to de-organic flown in food is hardly going to help).

It's a complex area but look at the mess UK farmers are in where a delay in paying subsidies due to Gov't incompetence drives many to the wall..

[alan refail]

I think the biggest problem with the subsidy system is the amount which is directed towards big business (agri and non-agri). This is compounded by the unwillingness of government(s) to publish figures.

Some might think this site is biased, but at least it's a brave attempt to get some information into the open:-

http://farmsubsidy.org/

Alan

[Jenny Green]

It looks as though farming subsidies foster a culture of dependency in the EU in much the same way as food aid does in the Third World.
It seems wrong that 49% of farming subsidies in the UK go to the top ten per cent of farmers. Is this a case of money going to 'help' the already rich?

[lizzie]

Try this link http://www.data.org/

This is something that has been campaigned for for a long time. The African Nations don't want charity, they want to tools to get themselves out of poverty. The world leaders signed a delceration at the G8 Summitt, but most have so far not paid up. The money raised has been ringfenced so as not to be shoved into Swiss bank accounts by the corrupt leaders.

There is the seed aid network, you send over unused seeds and the appropiate ones to the area are planted. The farmers then become part of the Fair Trade movement where they are paid the going rate for their produce, not what the supermarkets and middle men want to pay.

By doing a small thing (like buying Fair Trade, or a RED t-shirt from GAP, sending your seeds, giving a donation to help pay for a well to irrigate the fields and provide fresh drinking water) a person is helping a community to buy their own AIDS and anti viral medication, build schools, clinics, pay for innoculations.

I find it offensive that a child can die because of a mosquito bite in this day and age.

The French seems to do pretty well out of subsidies, and Ireland are doing very well, the Spansih seem ok with it too. It seems that Britain is the one who suffers, as usual, it's the "little men". We can all do our bit.

[beefy]

It looks as though farming subsidies foster a culture of dependency in the EU in much the same way as food aid does in the Third World.
It seems wrong that 49% of farming subsidies in the UK go to the top ten per cent of farmers. Is this a case of money going to 'help' the already rich?

Close Jenny .I cant give references or links on this but if you look into it you will find for the "average Family farm " the subsidy payment is the difference between making a little and going bust.
Also if you look into it you will find that farming has one of the lowest returns for money invested in it.Again without figures and I am guessing here and trying to remember facts from my days at agri college Returns for money invested in farming are around 1% whereas in any other industry you would look for at least 5%. If you ask your friendly bank manager /busness adviser (if you can find him/her)they would be able to give better figures than I can .

[beefy]

I think the biggest problem with the subsidy system is the amount which is directed towards big business (agri and non-agri). This is compounded by the unwillingness of government(s) to publish figures.

Some might think this site is biased, but at least it's a brave attempt to get some information into the open:-

http://farmsubsidy.org/

Alan

On that site alan if you follow the link for the story about the millionare subsidy pay out you will see that the farmer has used the system to his advantage. The loophole was there the government was warned and did nothing about it. But lets use the story as an example -

500 cows @£750/ head= £375000

Minimum of 500 acres to keep them on - £6000/acre= £3 million

At least another £250000 on machinery and equipment.

Lets call it £3.6 million.
Now in the article it says that he had 9 times the amount of quota that his cows could produce so for a fair claim we divide by 9 .
For easy counting we will divide by 10 and we get £100000.
We havent taken anything out for vets bills, repairs + maintenance, wages, contractors costs etc.
Once you take all this information into consideration the numbers dont look as bad now do they?
One case where the books have been cooked to the advantage of one individual is used to try and hammer the whole industry. Yes others do it as well but there are some out there who dont.

So for an investment of close to £4 million he gets a payment of £100000 and you dont know if the farm as a unit has made a profit or loss before the subsidy has been received.

[Jenny Green]

So how do New Zealand farmers exist without subsidies? It makes no sense to me.
Given the rising obesity rates, the West is producing too much food. We are paying our farmers to produce more food than we can eat and in the case of the USA this surplus food is used to suppress the market in the Third World.

[beefy]

So how do New Zealand farmers exist without subsidies? It makes no sense to me.
Given the rising obesity rates, the West is producing too much food. We are paying our farmers to produce more food than we can eat and in the case of the USA this surplus food is used to suppress the market in the Third World.

Economies of scale Jenny.Much bigger farms and a better climate means that cows for instance can stay outside all year - no need for expensive buildings or the need to cut and conserve grass for winter feeding which are two of the biggest cost here in the UK . My father who has a small dairy farm (120 acres and 70 cows)has just paid £45/acre for 60 acres to be cut and chopped for silage for the winter.He will cut another 50 acres in July and another 40 in September along with 30 acres of wheat. His bill will be roughly £ 8000 or £115/ cow.A good chunk of money for 3 days work I think you would agree. Also they have a large migrant work force that helps keep costs down.If as you say the west is producing to much food then it also begs the question why are we importing food from round the world?

[alan refail]

Beefy

Living as I do in an area of small farmers, I am well aware of the need for support and hear that many payments are delayed, wrongly calculated etc.

My main objection was the subsidies going to the huge enterprises, where, like New Zealand, there are economies of scale and cheap migrant labour.

Then there are the vast sums going to processors, presumably to maintain the supply of cheap food. The link I posted yesterday contains this interesting list of recipients of CAP money - they look like processors to me:-

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=e ... 11b063a858

Alan

[beefy]

Beefy

Living as I do in an area of small farmers, I am well aware of the need for support and hear that many payments are delayed, wrongly calculated etc.

My main objection was the subsidies going to the huge enterprises, where, like New Zealand, there are economies of scale and cheap migrant labour.

Then there are the vast sums going to processors, presumably to maintain the supply of cheap food. The link I posted yesterday contains this interesting list of recipients of CAP money - they look like processors to me:-

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=e ... 11b063a858

Alan

A few of the names on the map are known to me alan .

TMC Dairies is a creamery outside Londonderry .Dale Farm Ingredients is also a creamery with a few sites in Northern Ireland. With out knowing exactly what the money was for (what scheme etc) I would take a guess that it was for some sort of research as Dale Farm especially is a very inovative company right at the front of new products in the dairy sector.
Having been involved in the dairy industry myself I would be very suprised if Dale Farm were up to any mischeif as they are a well respected company here in NI.They are also one of the companies that are calling for better prices for farmers.
Lisburn Proteins are a company who process animal carcasses and can only assume the payments have something to do with the destruction of carcases from the Foot and Mouth or the BSE outbreaks.
Fayrefield Foods again a company in the dairy sector who specalise in the export of dairy produce worldwide so can only assume the payments have something to do with export subsidies.I have worked directly for Fayrefields a few years ago and can only say I have never meet a more professional ,honest and straight up bunch of people.
Without knowing the exact details and schemes involved it is hard to make a judgement but from the companies that are listed for Northern Ireland most are heavilly involved in exports and research and devolopment and inovation so I would be wary of the figures until I would know exactly what scheme the money came from and what it was supposed to be used for.But that said if its money that should be going to farmers and its ending up in somebody elses pocket its not right.