What ho!!! The Soil Association are considering removing their ‘organic’ status from food air freighted into the country. This is in response to the ‘green’ argument that much ‘organic’ food has a very high ‘carbon footprint’, good old Soil Association I say. However the vast majority of ‘organic’ food is transported by ship and road over great distances to satisfy the ‘green’ awareness. My goodness green is certainly the word to describe the organic fraternity.
No offence intended
Barney
Organic air miles
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
-
alan refail
- KG Regular
- Posts: 7254
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Chwilog Gogledd Orllewin Cymru Northwest Wales
- Been thanked: 7 times
He's right 
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/p ... ation.html
There's no doubt that far too much produce is airfreighted out of season to satisfy the growing demand for Organic food, and it would be a timely move if buyers were encouraged to think about where it comes from and at what cost. Perhaps people could also be persuaded to stop demanding everything (tomatoes, new potatoes, asparagus, and, yes, oranges, bananas, pineapples) whenever they want them.
Alan
Now, isn't that more polite than your approach, Barney
Calling people a "fraternity" and "green" is unlikely to make them respect your views.
"No offence intended" I bet it was, and it will be taken.
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/p ... ation.html
There's no doubt that far too much produce is airfreighted out of season to satisfy the growing demand for Organic food, and it would be a timely move if buyers were encouraged to think about where it comes from and at what cost. Perhaps people could also be persuaded to stop demanding everything (tomatoes, new potatoes, asparagus, and, yes, oranges, bananas, pineapples) whenever they want them.
Alan
Now, isn't that more polite than your approach, Barney
Calling people a "fraternity" and "green" is unlikely to make them respect your views.
"No offence intended" I bet it was, and it will be taken.
Cred air o bob deg a glywi, a thi a gei rywfaint bach o wir (hen ddihareb Gymraeg)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
Alan
Since you ask please allow me to respond to your question and false assumption. No, I don’t think your comments are by any means more polite than mine; sanctimonious is how I would describe your comments.
Best wishes
Barney
Since you ask please allow me to respond to your question and false assumption. No, I don’t think your comments are by any means more polite than mine; sanctimonious is how I would describe your comments.
Best wishes
Barney
-
Jenny Green
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:47 pm
- Location: East Midlands
Barney, the Soil Association can do no good in your opinion. You criticise them for giving an organic label to food that isn't local, and you criticise them for trying to do something to address this issue.
If you read the press release, you'll see this statement:
Life-cycle studies for the Government show that, on average, organic farming requires about 15% less energy to produce the same amount of food. Typically organic farming is around 30% more energy efficient, but it is less energy efficient for poultry and glasshouse vegetables. The main reason for its lower energy use is because it uses natural rather than industrial processes, in particular not using energy-intensive fertilisers.[1]
The reference for the research is at the bottom of the press release but I can tell you it was commissioned by DEFRA.
The Soil Association choosing to open to PUBLIC debate the issue of whether airmiles should be taken into account is sensible and responsible. Why do you have such an issue with this organisation?
If you read the press release, you'll see this statement:
Life-cycle studies for the Government show that, on average, organic farming requires about 15% less energy to produce the same amount of food. Typically organic farming is around 30% more energy efficient, but it is less energy efficient for poultry and glasshouse vegetables. The main reason for its lower energy use is because it uses natural rather than industrial processes, in particular not using energy-intensive fertilisers.[1]
The reference for the research is at the bottom of the press release but I can tell you it was commissioned by DEFRA.
The Soil Association choosing to open to PUBLIC debate the issue of whether airmiles should be taken into account is sensible and responsible. Why do you have such an issue with this organisation?
(Formerly known as 'Organic Freak')
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
Hello Jenny
NO, no, no you have misjudge me, (how harsh of you
) I welcomed the SA consultation regarding the air travel but unfortunately the percentage of organic food brought in by air is tiny when compared to the amount brought in by both ship and road transport. I wonder why they have chosen not to include these carbon producing miles. Perhaps if they were to include this then the availability of organic produce would drop dramatically and that would never do. Again, my observation of the SA is that they seem to make the rules up as they go along to suit their own self interests.
Best wishes
Barney
NO, no, no you have misjudge me, (how harsh of you
) I welcomed the SA consultation regarding the air travel but unfortunately the percentage of organic food brought in by air is tiny when compared to the amount brought in by both ship and road transport. I wonder why they have chosen not to include these carbon producing miles. Perhaps if they were to include this then the availability of organic produce would drop dramatically and that would never do. Again, my observation of the SA is that they seem to make the rules up as they go along to suit their own self interests.
Best wishes
Barney
-
Primrose
- KG Regular
- Posts: 8096
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:50 pm
- Location: Bucks.
- Has thanked: 47 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
I'm inclined to agree that the word "organic" is often misunderstood and interposed with "Green", which it definitely isn't when organic food is flown (or shipped) thousands of miles to satisfy the end user. We have become such global consumers of food now that it is very difficult to eat only native British foods when in season, unless we are prepared to have a very narrow choice. As a nation we were probably most "green" during the Second World War when a much larger proportion of our food was produced at home (and we did without all the exotic stuff) although I'm sure fertiliser was used to maximise crops, which certainly didn't make them organic. If our food wasn't imported now, we would almost certainly not be eating oranges, lemons, grapes, bananas, pineapples, avocados, onions and tomatoes at the moment and many other vegetables as well. In fact I suspect we would be very hard pushed to find much British fruit and veg in our shops. So, the big dilemma is "Do we want a varied and interesting diet or are we prepared to be totally green and avoid virtually all imported food?"
Hi Primrose,
The food produced during WW2 was very good and nutritious and yes mam made fertilizers were used.
The birth of National Growmore was during those years.
The Morrisons Supermarket locally is selling most of the conventionally produced vegetables as locally sourced and the counties are mentioned. Herefordshire and Worcestershire feature on most of them which to me is great. However this cannot be said of the Organic Produce which most certainly has many air miles attached.
For all the shouting by organic people about being more efficient the best method of production is the Integrated Farming Method. This method uses less carbon than all the others and Organic can shout all they wish but they do have a worse carbon footprint than any conventional method. They plough more land and they use tractors more for weeding by comparison to the amount of food produced. I know the SA try to take the manufacture of fertilizers into the equation and are quite right to do so but if you actually knew how much diesel is used to plough all the extra acres they would need to produce the same amount of food and compare the energy used to produce one ton of fertilizer I feel that the organics are far worse at wasting energy.
No doubt that comment will raise some hackles but why not.
JB.
The food produced during WW2 was very good and nutritious and yes mam made fertilizers were used.
The birth of National Growmore was during those years.
The Morrisons Supermarket locally is selling most of the conventionally produced vegetables as locally sourced and the counties are mentioned. Herefordshire and Worcestershire feature on most of them which to me is great. However this cannot be said of the Organic Produce which most certainly has many air miles attached.
For all the shouting by organic people about being more efficient the best method of production is the Integrated Farming Method. This method uses less carbon than all the others and Organic can shout all they wish but they do have a worse carbon footprint than any conventional method. They plough more land and they use tractors more for weeding by comparison to the amount of food produced. I know the SA try to take the manufacture of fertilizers into the equation and are quite right to do so but if you actually knew how much diesel is used to plough all the extra acres they would need to produce the same amount of food and compare the energy used to produce one ton of fertilizer I feel that the organics are far worse at wasting energy.
No doubt that comment will raise some hackles but why not.
JB.
-
Jenny Green
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:47 pm
- Location: East Midlands
Johnboy, the research took all input of fuel resources into consideration:
All inputs into on-farm production for each commodity were traced back to primary resources such as coal, crude oil and mined ore. All activities supporting farm production, such as feed production and processing, machinery and fertiliser manufacture, fertility building and cover crops, were included.
The report can be found here:
http://www.defra.gov.uk
Its title is
Williams, A.G., Audsley, E. and Sandars, D.L. (2006) Determining the environmental burdens and resource use in the production of agricultural and horticultural commodities. Main Report. Defra Research Project IS0205
So your claim that organic farming uses more natural resources than any other is wrong.
And no one is shouting about anything. Please stop trying to characterise people who disagree with you as fanatical. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Opening to public debate the issue of whether food imported by air should have organic status is rational and inclusive of all opinions, hardly the actions of the tyranny you attempt to portray the Soil Association as being.
All inputs into on-farm production for each commodity were traced back to primary resources such as coal, crude oil and mined ore. All activities supporting farm production, such as feed production and processing, machinery and fertiliser manufacture, fertility building and cover crops, were included.
The report can be found here:
http://www.defra.gov.uk
Its title is
Williams, A.G., Audsley, E. and Sandars, D.L. (2006) Determining the environmental burdens and resource use in the production of agricultural and horticultural commodities. Main Report. Defra Research Project IS0205
So your claim that organic farming uses more natural resources than any other is wrong.
And no one is shouting about anything. Please stop trying to characterise people who disagree with you as fanatical. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Opening to public debate the issue of whether food imported by air should have organic status is rational and inclusive of all opinions, hardly the actions of the tyranny you attempt to portray the Soil Association as being.
(Formerly known as 'Organic Freak')
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
-
Jenny Green
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:47 pm
- Location: East Midlands
Cider Boys wrote:Hello Jenny
NO, no, no you have misjudge me, (how harsh of you
Best wishes
Barney
Are you saying that organic produce uses more food miles than conventional? Could you please quote a reference to support this claim? I would be genuinely interested to read the evidence behind your assertion.
I don't think opening an issue to public debate can really be characterised as making up the rules as you go along to suit your own self interests.
(Formerly known as 'Organic Freak')
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
Jenny the reason that the SA is considering removing its organic status from air freighted food is due to the substantial critisism that has arisen due to the fact that indeed most organic food leaves a large carbon footprint. This is a positive initiative. My observation was that whilst this is true the facts are that air miles are only a tiny percentage of the total miles that the organic industry creates.
I confidently predict that the pressure exerted by the growing realisation that SA organic certainly does not equal green will cause much further healthy debate amongst the growing number of interested parties.
The British grower has been slow to jump on the organic bandwagon due to the high cost of labour and the much inefficiency associated with organic production. Believe me there is increasing pressure growing to reduce some of the organic standards to obtain organic status in order to encourage conversion. This includes reducing the time for organic conversion and other standards to make it easier for British growers to jump on the gravy train. Whilst some organisations exert pressure in the other direction to help preserve the developing countries’ interests in the organic industry. I expect the SA to change their definition of organic as many times as we have on this forum in the next five years.
Essentially what was originally a green ideal has become commercial business with political interests.
Organic food relies on excessive (compared with conventional) mechanisation or using very cheap labour in developing countries. What do the organic supporters want, local expensive organic food only produced in season with high European labour costs with the increasing use of fuel to power mechanisation (this removing the opportunity for poorer countries to benefit from this organic fad), or to encourage the cheap labourers to keep producing wholesome organic food air freighted for us to indulge in whilst they eat conventionally grown food from other countries?
Just what do the organic supporters want?
Barney
I confidently predict that the pressure exerted by the growing realisation that SA organic certainly does not equal green will cause much further healthy debate amongst the growing number of interested parties.
The British grower has been slow to jump on the organic bandwagon due to the high cost of labour and the much inefficiency associated with organic production. Believe me there is increasing pressure growing to reduce some of the organic standards to obtain organic status in order to encourage conversion. This includes reducing the time for organic conversion and other standards to make it easier for British growers to jump on the gravy train. Whilst some organisations exert pressure in the other direction to help preserve the developing countries’ interests in the organic industry. I expect the SA to change their definition of organic as many times as we have on this forum in the next five years.
Essentially what was originally a green ideal has become commercial business with political interests.
Organic food relies on excessive (compared with conventional) mechanisation or using very cheap labour in developing countries. What do the organic supporters want, local expensive organic food only produced in season with high European labour costs with the increasing use of fuel to power mechanisation (this removing the opportunity for poorer countries to benefit from this organic fad), or to encourage the cheap labourers to keep producing wholesome organic food air freighted for us to indulge in whilst they eat conventionally grown food from other countries?
Just what do the organic supporters want?
Barney
hi Barney , i dont think tere's a simple answere to your queation, "Just what do the organic supporters want?"
there are organic supporters who see it as a green thing, so they will be concerned about air miles
there are those who see it as a health thing, they want organic food cos they dont want the potential hazzards of chemical residues, air miles are less of a concern to this group.
there are others who want to buy organic cos its the fashionable thing to be seen to do, they probably dont even think they know what organic means.
if organic refers to a method of production that produces a product to a set standard at the farm gate , what energy is used in transport to market and consumer is irrelevent to the products organic status. its "greenness"(or co2 footprint or whatever) at the point of retail sale in another thing entirely
there are organic supporters who see it as a green thing, so they will be concerned about air miles
there are those who see it as a health thing, they want organic food cos they dont want the potential hazzards of chemical residues, air miles are less of a concern to this group.
there are others who want to buy organic cos its the fashionable thing to be seen to do, they probably dont even think they know what organic means.
if organic refers to a method of production that produces a product to a set standard at the farm gate , what energy is used in transport to market and consumer is irrelevent to the products organic status. its "greenness"(or co2 footprint or whatever) at the point of retail sale in another thing entirely
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
Hello Peter
Thanks for your very rationale answer.
My daughter and grandson are staying with us over the weekend and she buys organic food whenever she can, when I ask why, she replies “It’s supposed to be better for you isn’t it?”
This I accept seems as good enough reason as any.
Barney
Thanks for your very rationale answer.
My daughter and grandson are staying with us over the weekend and she buys organic food whenever she can, when I ask why, she replies “It’s supposed to be better for you isn’t it?”
This I accept seems as good enough reason as any.
Barney
-
Cider Boys
- KG Regular
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 112 times
Hello Richard
I'm sorry, I was talking to Peter on the phone whilst typing, brilliant this Broadband technology.
Barney
I'm sorry, I was talking to Peter on the phone whilst typing, brilliant this Broadband technology.
Barney
Just to widen the 'Organic' discussion further - I do object to buying 'organic' bacon and finding it's got 12% water in it. I had always felt that 'organic' was an ethos rather than a technicality over pesticides etc - much as Mr Potato Head said in another thread. I'm rapidly rethinking.
------------------
Granny
------------------
Granny