Rat in compost bin !

[Gilly C]

I have managed to get rid of it with poison no activity for past 2 weeks , my problem is would you use the compost on the veg plot, I think not ! we have planted lots of trees so I could use it around those and I can get plenty of horse manure free from the local stables.
What would you do ?

[oldherbaceous]

Dear Gilly, rats often take a lot of poisoned bate back to their burrows before eating it, so there will probably be some still in your compost heap.
I don't know if it could contaminate you veg or not, but i don't think i would take a chance.
If you get another one, just dig your compost heap out, and the rat will move on, thats if your brave enough.

I can remember years ago when they used to get to the bottom of the hay rick, it was alive with rats, there wasn't many blokes that wanted to go near them.
They would often net right round the bottom of the rick and put a couple of terriers in there.

[richard p]

dig over the compost over with a sharp fork, when it gets noisy youve found one, when it goes quiet its probably dead, but give it a few more stabs before trying to dig it out

[alan refail]

Remember, if your frightened of rats, they're terrified of you. Seriously, not being nasty. Do what Richard suggests; you may not kill them, but they'll clear off (at least for a while).

[Gilly C]

I am pretty sure the have gone or dead no digging or taking bait for 2 weeks my question is the compost safe to use weals disease etc. ?

[alan refail]

As I suspected Weil's Disease is only transmitted through water (rats' urine initially. When dry it is not a problem.]
The following is copied from HDRA (Garden Organic) fact sheet on rats:

Weil’s Disease is the disease most often associated with rats, of which 15-30% are likely to be carriers. The bacterium, found in rat urine, can affect humans. Symptoms are flu-like, such as fever, headaches and vomiting. In severe cases, jaundice can develop, along with haemorrhages in the skin and mucus membranes. If not diagnosed and treated, it can be fatal. The bacteria can only survive in water, and infection occurs when contaminated water enters the body either by swallowing or via an open wound. Activities and professions involving water, such canoeing, caving or plumbing carry the highest risk. Once urine has dried, infection is unlikely. Leptospirosis, the early stages of the disease, is very rare and its deterioration into Weil’s disease rarer still. Fatalities only usually occur after mis-diagnosis. The number of human cases of Weil’s disease has fallen to particularly low levels in recent years.
Rats urinate constantly as they move around a garden, therefore any surface over which they have passed can be contaminated until the urine has dried. Only very recently used and still wet ‘runs’ will be a source of infection.

For more info try a google on Leptospirosis

Alan

[Gilly C]

Thank you Alan that puts my mind at rest for that but I stll don't fancy using it on the veg plot, I think I will use it elsewhere being careful wearing gloves as compost is damp or mine is ! and get some horse manure .
Our problem is we have potato fields close by and our nearest neighbour is a farm as soon as he starts using his hay in the barn some of the rats move out, we have the chicken hut 2 foot off the ground and all other sheds with light underneath but my compost bin is tucked away where my dogs cannot access (that is why I was able to use poison)I did try Eradirat but they didn't touch it so got some product by Rentokil from Wilkinsons 3 days later they disappeared before doing so they managed to get 3 eggs up on top of the compost How ? I have no idea the hens certainly couldn't get in with a heavy weight on top and the rats must have got in the hen hut whilst they were free ranging as the run is securely wired they cannot get at the hen food as it is in peck feeders and the automatic drinker is a foot above ground.

[darrenc]

Buy an air rifle its safer than poison, i should know i think i poisoned a hedgehog last year because i found a blue poo under the romanesco. If you do continue with the poison pin it the floor with under a peice of guttering weighted by bricks to prevent hedghogs and birds getting at it. The poison i use is Tomcat Blox 2,not exactly organic or eco freindly i know but when a prat moves into the allotment next to you and thinks he can Bernard Matthews on at his own game you learn very quickly. A word of warning, never handle rats with bare hands you run the risk of catching Weils disease (Leptospirosis) it attacks the central nervous system and major organs, if it doesnt kill you it may leave you severely crippled and UNABLE TO GARDEN.If they are in the compost bin never handle the compost with bare hands as Weils is spread by rat urine

[Primrose]

Well you folks have got me worried now because I've had the odd rat in my compost cages for a couple of years now and have been digging the compost out and spreading it on my vegetable patch and borders, so far with no ill effect. I'm assuming that rain washing through the soil would probably dilute any diease but I could obviously be wrong.

If I suddenly stop posting on this website you'll know that perhaps something horrible has caught up with me. I've put rat poison down in containers beside the cages and hopefully Ratty has carried it back to his den and died. But living in a semi rural area where you can't avoid rats, it's probably quite possible that rats have urinated almost anywhere in our gardens or allotments so I don't know how one can protect oneself against this kind of infection, apart from ensuring that all vegetables are thoroughly washed before being eaten raw. Also, would cooking vegetables reduce the disease risk?

[oldherbaceous]

Dear Primrose, i wouldn't worry to much about rat diseases, but i would check your compost for uneaten rat poison.

[alan refail]

I agree with OH. Don't worry. There have been rats around for a long time, and the general official opinion is that leptospirosis is very rare and its development into Weils disease rarer still. I would have thought you were more likely to make yourself ill with the worry. Remember
1 there are estimated to be at least as many rats as people
2 rats urinate constantly so the stuff is everywhere

As for risk - wash raw vegetables, and yes the bacteria are killed by heat, and cold as well as drying out.

Extract from Garden Organic advice

Gardeners are most unlikely to be infected by Weil’s disease, providing that basic garden hygiene is followed. After work in the garden, hands should be washed in hot soapy water, and dried. Compost in which rats have nested or burrowed is perfectly safe to use in the garden. Bacteria may survive in moist soil, but will not be absorbed into plant tissue. Always wash vegetables, including herbs, brought in from the garden. Temperatures below 4°C and above 37C° will kill the leptospira bacteria.
There is clearly no need to stop composting.

Don't Panic :!:
After all just because you see the odd rat doesn't mean that there haven't been dozens more around unseen. And when did you last hear of anyone with Weil's disease?

Alan

[Primrose]

Thanks for that reassurance Alan. Actually a couple of years ago I had a fairly close relationship with Roland Rat in our compost heap, who turned out to be Rolanda Rat when she taught her babies how to climb the fence to reach the peanut cages for the birds. The babies got so tame they would come right up to our patio door and I thought they were rather cute. Then the neighbours (understandably) started to complain about the rat popoulation and I had to call the pest control people in. But I'd had such fun watching their antics that I felt truly dreadful watching them staggering across the grass as they slowly died and decided I would never let myself get so attached to the rat species again.

[peter]

Don't Panic :!:
After all just because you see the odd rat doesn't mean that there haven't been dozens more around unseen. And when did you last hear of anyone with Weil's disease?Alan

About five years ago.
A local canoeist on our canalised river.

Prior to that someone with a grazed leg who waded in welingtons through water deeper than his wellies.

I would be more concerned about eating the sweetcorn from a neighbours plot last year, Mr Rat was perched on the cob, gnawing the top of it where the whiskers poke out.

Don't wade in slow moving or contaminated flood waters, use plasters or gloves as approprtiate when handling ratty stuff and if a rat has been gnawing your produce discard the gnawed items.
Be careful with rat poison, local farmer lost his dog when it ate a dead rat.
If you get rats kill as many of them as possible and remove whatever brought them to your property.
Not your veg, but nestplaces, inappropriate compost ingredients, stored stuff into ratproof bins etc etc.

[alan refail]

Peter

I would still say don't panic.
If you research the warnings about Weil's the at-risk are those who are in contact with water - canoeists, swimmers, fishermen and plumbers - not gardeners. And remember that the bacteria are very fragile (die with cold, heat or dryness). Rats are everywhere (we have poultry and a riverbank) - the ones you see are certainly not the only ones; they are more active after dark when you are not.
Sensible precautions are what is needed as with any potential danger.

Alan

[peter]

Alan, I was agreeing with you and suggesting some sensible precautions.

Just remember, Rats like to eat most things we like. So if you get rats deal with them as best you can.

We have had a problem with our (genuinely) lovely neighbour, she feeds the birds, a great deal.
Result high speed rats across our garden, out from my shed, across lawn and path through the hedge to the bird feeding area. Too fast to shoot, we have a dog so not keen on poison, had to use traps under covers and ask nicely if the amount of birdfeed could be reduced, which once they saw a few bodies and some live ones , it did.