Creosote

[Cider Boys]

I am aware of the EU ruling on the sale of creosote for non industrial use. (In other words treating the amateur as an idiot!) I also regularly read the advice not to use creosote treated wood such as old railway sleepers etc. when constructing raised beds. Excuse my ignorance but why is this? As long as the creosote has not been recently applied there surely is little risk of any chemicals leaching to affect any plants.
Having previously worked for many years as a BT linesman I am well aware of the bleeding of creosote and tar from new overhead line poles especially in hot weather but old dry previously creosote treated timber should be ideal for raised beds, or am I missing an important point?

Barney

[Chantal]

I have very old sleepers as steps in my garden and they still leach sticky stuff when it's really hot. I also have them around a raised bed which now has a greenhouse on top of it. I just don't plant too close to the sides.

[Granny]

On a similar line, I use wooden stakes to support my outdoor tomatoes as canes tend to get pulled over. What preservative would people recommend for them?
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Granny

[richard p]

i would have suggested dipping them in a tub of old engine oil, but apparently thats not recommended now either.

[Primrose]

Granny - I used to use old broomstick handles coated with the green preservative you use for coating fences for supporting my tomatoes but for many years now I've used the green plastic covered carbon steel (I think this is what they are made of) posts which you can buy from garden centres for my tomatoes and climbing beans. They're expensive but I've probably had mine for about 12 years now and they're thin enough for me to be able to slip plastic mineral water bottles with bottoms sawn off them over to protect my plants from a late frost if I plant them out early to stop them getting leggy. But I grow my veggies in the garden. They're too expensive to use in an allotment in case they get nicked.

[peter]

Barney, what you are missing is a dose of modern chemical hysteria.

Mind you old "town" gasworks are classed as heavily contaminated land due to the muck (including creosote) that leached out of the coal during the gassing process. Excess cadmium is I think one of the major issues there.

[gandalf]

It's carcinogenic,that's the point..or so the EU says.

[Johnboy]

Gandalf,
What is the "It" in "it's carcinogenic?"
When I learned that Creosote was to be removed from the market I stocked up on it and still have about 50 gallons in stock. Used sensibly there is nothing wrong with it.
As for Cadmium well I suspect that most nuts and bolts and screws that are not made of stainless steel are Cadmium plated.
As for treated timber for raised beds and for garden stakes it is the out of date information put out by the organic organizations that is at fault because when that was written into their folklore certainly the vacuum treatments contained Cyanide but the Safety of Work Act meant that the treatment had to be reformulated and now is user friendly and contains no obnoxious chemicals. In order to try and prevent people using chemicals of any kind the Organic Organizations have deliberately not brought their information up to date and it is now about 15 years out of date.
JB.

[alan refail]

I have no axe to grind on this one - though I am foxed as to exactly what Johnboy is blaming the organic organisations for. When I was young I used to have to creosote poultry sheds, and I hated the stuff - never used it since.
However, the facts are that the sale and use are illegal

"Anyone who supplies creosote, some similar products, or timber treated with creosote, could commit an offence that carries a maximum penalty of six months imprisonment and/or a fine of up to £5000." (Milton Keynes Trading Standards http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/milt ... eosote.htm)

Johnboy, if you use your 50 gallons at, say, a gallon a job, that adds up to quite a fine!

The following link contains all the details:


http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sh ... 10597.html

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
I read your posting and the Trading Standards website which is for householders but commercial outlets were given a dispensation on the time limit to use up the existing stocks. My stocks are existing and I am a commercial outlet and when the 50 gallons have gone I will obviously not be able to purchase any more. End of story!
With regards to Vacuum Treated Wood the warnings of the hazards put about by the Organic Organizations have not changed but the formulation of the Vacuum Treatment has. This means that the information that they are portraying is in fact inaccurate. I feel that my first posting is quite explicit as to what I meant.
JB.

[Mr Potato Head]

Well, I went to the website for the leading 'Organic organisation', looking for their horror stories / out of date information. What I found seemed quite reasonable on the surface, but obviously they're hiding something...

As ever there's a reasonable article on Wikipediatoo.

[PAULW]

ALAN You have been misinformed

After the 30 June 2003, creosote can be sold and used in industrial installations and by professionals providing that the creosote complies with the new compositional requirements and the restrictions on the uses of wood so treated. Examples of permitted use include telegraph poles, railway sleepers, fencing and certain agricultural purposes.

Once again a substance/chemical that has been used safely by the majority of people for many years has been sacrificed at the alter of ELF & SAFETY

[Mr Potato Head]

PaulW is correct, but surely it's ambiguous to say whether carcinogenic materials have or have not caused cancer in those that have 'used it safely for years'? Perhaps erring on the side of caution might be a good thing? Anyway, the HSE are keen to stress that it's not a high risk, so I think a responsible user like JB is probably not at risk

[alan refail]

PaulW
No, I have not been misinformed. I merely posted the links to the official information available. Since, I suspect, the vast majority of forum members are "amateurs", it seems irrelevant, if not downright irresponsible to promote (?) the use of a banned substance.
You say:

"Once again a substance/chemical that has been used safely by the majority of people for many years has been sacrificed at the alter of ELF & SAFETY"

The experts seem to know something you don't.

DDT, I recall, was "used safely by the majority of people for many years". How many of us want to see its return?

Barney's original question hasn't been answered.

However much you may mock Health and Safety regulations (and there may be plenty in them which seems extreme), imagine what the world was like before.

[Cider Boys]

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer my own question; having worked with creosote for many years for a very large employer I was never aware of anyone getting skin cancer because of creosote use. There were studies done using rodents (virtually swimming in creosote 24 hours a day) and the conclusion was that there was a small likelihood that it increased their susceptibility of skin cancer. All that was necessary was to print a warning that gloves, clothing and eye shields should be used to prevent skin contact. As far as I know no studies were done on the effect of fume inhalation which certainly caused me more concern when applying large quantities. Therefore I used a filtered face mask.

As PaulW correctly states creosote is still available for commercial use, my son bought 25 litres last Saturday. It, in my opinion, is a case of the Nanby Pambies finding something to ban again to justify their existence. It dismays me that there is such support on this forum for these pathetic attitudes. I grew up in an age where you developed and used your common sense. Now we have generations brought up within these protective cotton wool environments that have no appreciation of possible dangers because they are protected from everything. I say “USE YOUR COMMON SENSE” if available.

Barney