Food miles not organic!
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Jenny Green
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I don't know. But I've heard he had great knockers!
(Formerly known as 'Organic Freak')
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
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peter
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Cider Boys wrote:Just answer me this, was Benito Mussolini an organic gardener or not? Barney
Not sure if he was, but he helped loads of them.
He talked enough shite to manure all of Italy.
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.
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Mr PH,
Having looked at Integrated Farm Management now have a look at Integrated Pest Management as practiced by growers in conjunction with all the major Supermarkets.
If a grower steps outside those guidelines he loses his livelihood and although a particular crop may have been treated with what you would term as "a nasty" in its formative period what is in the finished crop, if still present at all, is so small that it is hardly detectable. I admit that it is true that chemicals may be present.
But what I refuse to accept is that all growers other than SA registered growers are a lying, cheating load of people who are endeavouring to fill up the population with chemicals and that all SA registered growers are as pure as the driven snow because this is how this entire thread looks.
As previously stated pragmatic gardening is to me the preferred method for home gardeners and although they may use artificial fertilizers and possible the odd pesticide they take as many steps as they can to avoid doing so.
Just remember 'Organics' is a method of growing not a 'Religion' as some people will have you believe.
JB.
Having looked at Integrated Farm Management now have a look at Integrated Pest Management as practiced by growers in conjunction with all the major Supermarkets.
If a grower steps outside those guidelines he loses his livelihood and although a particular crop may have been treated with what you would term as "a nasty" in its formative period what is in the finished crop, if still present at all, is so small that it is hardly detectable. I admit that it is true that chemicals may be present.
But what I refuse to accept is that all growers other than SA registered growers are a lying, cheating load of people who are endeavouring to fill up the population with chemicals and that all SA registered growers are as pure as the driven snow because this is how this entire thread looks.
As previously stated pragmatic gardening is to me the preferred method for home gardeners and although they may use artificial fertilizers and possible the odd pesticide they take as many steps as they can to avoid doing so.
Just remember 'Organics' is a method of growing not a 'Religion' as some people will have you believe.
JB.
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Cider Boys
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Although not strictly practising organic methods as in accordance with the Soil Association, I can recommend, ‘The Takeover and Control of an Allotment’ by B Mussolini. This is not to be confused with the book I am writing ‘The History of Fascism in Horticulture’ under the pseudonym of Barneto Muesli.
Barney
Barney
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Jenny Green
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Cider Boys wrote:Although not strictly practising organic methods as in accordance with the Soil Association, I can recommend, ‘The Takeover and Control of an Allotment’ by B Mussolini. This is not to be confused with the book I am writing ‘The History of Fascism in Horticulture’ under the pseudonym of Barneto Muesli.
Barney
(Formerly known as 'Organic Freak')
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.
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Mr Potato Head
Dagnammit Barney, I am writing my own treatise - 'You can take a horticulture, but you can't touch her organic knockers' - sounds like it's a similar theme. Race you to the publishers... 
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alan refail
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Johnboy said
Organic farms use considerably more diesel than conventional farms so perhaps that should be taken into consideration.
Seems to me like yet another unsubstantiated assertion. But just to be fair I have searched for literature to back Johnboy up or otherwise. Found nothing. In the interests of knowledge, can anyone suggest informative links?
Alan
Organic farms use considerably more diesel than conventional farms so perhaps that should be taken into consideration.
Seems to me like yet another unsubstantiated assertion. But just to be fair I have searched for literature to back Johnboy up or otherwise. Found nothing. In the interests of knowledge, can anyone suggest informative links?
Alan
Cred air o bob deg a glywi, a thi a gei rywfaint bach o wir (hen ddihareb Gymraeg)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
Believe one tenth of what you hear, and you will get some little truth (old Welsh proverb)
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Colin Miles
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Regarding Food Miles, if a 40 ton lorry travels 200 miles to deliver potatoes, is that not better than someone driving 10 miles locally to get a 56lb sack of potatoes?
Alan
Organic commercial veg growing often can use more diesel than conventional. The reason being mainly for weed control. As systemic/residual weedkillers are not used, more passes with mechanical cultivation are needed. Also, flame weeders are used - more fossil fuel.
Personally I'm not against careful use of glyphosate for weed control/grass destruction as its residues do not persist in food or environment long term, and it can lead to better soil conservation and less diesel use if ploughing is not practiced. I am against residual or specific weedkillers as although they too can lead to less diesel use, they usually are persistant in the food chain, and many past formulations have been proven to be harmful.
Johnboy
Your comment inspired me to reread this whole thread. I didn't see anyone on this thread stating such things, or consider that the thread appears this way. Maybe you should reread it. I think maybe you're having a knocker moment(':wink:')
As far as I can make out, individual derogations are given regularly by the SA, because they are reasonably pragmatic. They are aiming for an agreed ideal set of standards on which consumers can rely. If a producer does't want to bother to attain those standards, then they shouldn't get the certificate, and whatever market price that can go with it. Whats to complain about?
We belong to a network of Organic Commercial Growers - half of whom (like ourselves obviously) are't SA certificated - they call their produce 'pesticide free' or whatever and still sell it. We all do OK, no need to join the 'SA club' - we're 'transparent' and people seem happy to buy our goods as they probably do Allans' and did yours.
Cheers
Mole
Organic commercial veg growing often can use more diesel than conventional. The reason being mainly for weed control. As systemic/residual weedkillers are not used, more passes with mechanical cultivation are needed. Also, flame weeders are used - more fossil fuel.
Personally I'm not against careful use of glyphosate for weed control/grass destruction as its residues do not persist in food or environment long term, and it can lead to better soil conservation and less diesel use if ploughing is not practiced. I am against residual or specific weedkillers as although they too can lead to less diesel use, they usually are persistant in the food chain, and many past formulations have been proven to be harmful.
Johnboy
But what I refuse to accept is that all growers other than SA registered growers are a lying, cheating load of people who are endeavouring to fill up the population with chemicals and that all SA registered growers are as pure as the driven snow because this is how this entire thread looks.
Your comment inspired me to reread this whole thread. I didn't see anyone on this thread stating such things, or consider that the thread appears this way. Maybe you should reread it. I think maybe you're having a knocker moment(':wink:')
As far as I can make out, individual derogations are given regularly by the SA, because they are reasonably pragmatic. They are aiming for an agreed ideal set of standards on which consumers can rely. If a producer does't want to bother to attain those standards, then they shouldn't get the certificate, and whatever market price that can go with it. Whats to complain about?
We belong to a network of Organic Commercial Growers - half of whom (like ourselves obviously) are't SA certificated - they call their produce 'pesticide free' or whatever and still sell it. We all do OK, no need to join the 'SA club' - we're 'transparent' and people seem happy to buy our goods as they probably do Allans' and did yours.
Cheers
Mole
Last edited by Mole on Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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peter
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jopsy wrote:i have absolutely lost the plot
Oh, Jopsy, so sad for you.
Did you fail to cultivate it?
Or was the site sold for housing?
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
Hi Alison
This has to be a quick reply because of lack of time right now. "Sustainable" is a term that, like "organic" is easy to use but difficult to define. By pragmatic I mean a thoughtful approach which takes on board the basic science that underpins what we do, the evidence of what works and an awarenes of the effects our actions have at all levels of the environment. Pragmatic gardening has a rational and ethical dimension but is not dogmatic.
I'll be happy to expand - but right I now have to get ready for work tomorrow - 1000 mile round trip - too many air miles but unavoidable given my professional responsibilities.
Beat Wishes
This has to be a quick reply because of lack of time right now. "Sustainable" is a term that, like "organic" is easy to use but difficult to define. By pragmatic I mean a thoughtful approach which takes on board the basic science that underpins what we do, the evidence of what works and an awarenes of the effects our actions have at all levels of the environment. Pragmatic gardening has a rational and ethical dimension but is not dogmatic.
I'll be happy to expand - but right I now have to get ready for work tomorrow - 1000 mile round trip - too many air miles but unavoidable given my professional responsibilities.
Beat Wishes
Chris
Hi Alan,
Organic Farmers use more diesel when correlated to the yield. They use more land to grow the same amount of produce as conventional farms. They also much more diesel when they are mechanically weeding
and as Mole points out they use flameguns to clear various areas prior to ploughing. This all adds up to considerably more fossil fuel per ton of marketable food. I can only explain this as it was part of the considerations with the Farming Today programmes week long investigation to try and find the most environmentally friendly form of farming.
The Soil Association took part and agreed with the outcome. Integrated Farming, although it uses Herbicides and Pesticides, it was voted as the most environmentally friendly method and made far less impact on the land than Organic or Conventional Farming. Organic fell down for the larger use of fossil fuel (which was quite considerable) and the amount of land disturbance and the amount of land used. I am afraid that I can give no website that would give you the information. I think if you sit down and reason it out you will, for obvious reasons, see why Organic farms use more fossil fuel.
Hi Mole,
You are quite right that there is no mention of Organic farmers being as clean as the driven snow or conventional being the baddies but over the years the inference has been there. I have read certain articles that have come out and said that conventional farmers lack the scruples of their organic counterparts. Also the constant reference by Organic people who describe Supermarket vegatables as jam packed with chemicals when they are not.
I have watched the antics of the SA since about 1948/9 and my how they have changed over the years.
But I note that you and your partner produce good clean produce without the use of pesticides and that you do not think that in certain circumstances the use of Glyphosate is a crime.
All I need to hear now is that you use the odd man made fertilizer and I will say welcome to the Pragmatic fraternity.
What it clearly demonstrates is that you both clearly think for yourselves and this will show in the quality of your produce.
I always presented my produce with pride and I am sure you are both of the same mind.
Regards JB.
Organic Farmers use more diesel when correlated to the yield. They use more land to grow the same amount of produce as conventional farms. They also much more diesel when they are mechanically weeding
and as Mole points out they use flameguns to clear various areas prior to ploughing. This all adds up to considerably more fossil fuel per ton of marketable food. I can only explain this as it was part of the considerations with the Farming Today programmes week long investigation to try and find the most environmentally friendly form of farming.
The Soil Association took part and agreed with the outcome. Integrated Farming, although it uses Herbicides and Pesticides, it was voted as the most environmentally friendly method and made far less impact on the land than Organic or Conventional Farming. Organic fell down for the larger use of fossil fuel (which was quite considerable) and the amount of land disturbance and the amount of land used. I am afraid that I can give no website that would give you the information. I think if you sit down and reason it out you will, for obvious reasons, see why Organic farms use more fossil fuel.
Hi Mole,
You are quite right that there is no mention of Organic farmers being as clean as the driven snow or conventional being the baddies but over the years the inference has been there. I have read certain articles that have come out and said that conventional farmers lack the scruples of their organic counterparts. Also the constant reference by Organic people who describe Supermarket vegatables as jam packed with chemicals when they are not.
I have watched the antics of the SA since about 1948/9 and my how they have changed over the years.
But I note that you and your partner produce good clean produce without the use of pesticides and that you do not think that in certain circumstances the use of Glyphosate is a crime.
All I need to hear now is that you use the odd man made fertilizer and I will say welcome to the Pragmatic fraternity.
What it clearly demonstrates is that you both clearly think for yourselves and this will show in the quality of your produce.
I always presented my produce with pride and I am sure you are both of the same mind.
Regards JB.
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Cider Boys
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An excellent and rational contribution (as always) Johnboy. If only there was a pressure group to lobby the media of the facts then many of general public would be able to make a more educated choice.
A little except for you all from by forth coming book.
Preamble
Only last week, I by chance met a former work colleague and friend that I had not seen for years. He like many other people was always keen on fitness and health and enquired if I was still growing the odd potato and like and I replied that I was.
The conversation continued.
”Is it organic!” he eagerly exclaimed, I carefully replied “no we are not SA approved”,
His excited smile fell from his face. “I like to buy organic food for the family, without all those nasty chemicals, you know” was his solemn reply.
As is usual in these circumstances we promised to keep in touch and went our separate ways, (in more ways than one).
Barneto
Damn,this book writing malarkey is more complicated that it first seemed. Why the hell these publishers want it written in the first person I will never understand. If anyone understands my English please feel free to correct any punctuation. You will receive a signed copy on its publication.
Barney
A little except for you all from by forth coming book.
Preamble
Only last week, I by chance met a former work colleague and friend that I had not seen for years. He like many other people was always keen on fitness and health and enquired if I was still growing the odd potato and like and I replied that I was.
The conversation continued.
”Is it organic!” he eagerly exclaimed, I carefully replied “no we are not SA approved”,
His excited smile fell from his face. “I like to buy organic food for the family, without all those nasty chemicals, you know” was his solemn reply.
As is usual in these circumstances we promised to keep in touch and went our separate ways, (in more ways than one).
Barneto
Damn,this book writing malarkey is more complicated that it first seemed. Why the hell these publishers want it written in the first person I will never understand. If anyone understands my English please feel free to correct any punctuation. You will receive a signed copy on its publication.
Barney
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Mr Potato Head
Funnily enough, I was having difficulty with a passage from my book. Perhaps some other contributions might help me out. Likewise, my publishers seem to want it in the first person - apparently it makes it more 'readable'...
"I bumped into an old friend in a supermarket. She was standing in the fruit and veg aisle, contemplating the broccolli.
'Hi', said I. 'Are you okay?'
'Hmm, I'm not sure which of these to buy. They're both grown locally, which is good, and the supermarket says that it tries to farm responsibly.'
'So what's the problem?'
'Well, will the organic one have been farmed using artificial chemicals?' She said, looking confused.
'No' I said, confidently.
'Well, what about the other one, it's a little cheaper.' Her eyes looked at me hopefully.
'I don't know, perhaps, perhaps not.' And with that, I left her to her ruminations."
It's just an outline really, but I never was very good at writing dialogue.
"I bumped into an old friend in a supermarket. She was standing in the fruit and veg aisle, contemplating the broccolli.
'Hi', said I. 'Are you okay?'
'Hmm, I'm not sure which of these to buy. They're both grown locally, which is good, and the supermarket says that it tries to farm responsibly.'
'So what's the problem?'
'Well, will the organic one have been farmed using artificial chemicals?' She said, looking confused.
'No' I said, confidently.
'Well, what about the other one, it's a little cheaper.' Her eyes looked at me hopefully.
'I don't know, perhaps, perhaps not.' And with that, I left her to her ruminations."
It's just an outline really, but I never was very good at writing dialogue.