Hi John,
To make any F1 viable it has to be produced for the commercial market but the home Catalogues select the
F1 seeds that are appropriate for the home garden.
If you take Italian Green Calabrese as a benchmark and then sample any of the F1 Calabrese which to me are simply awful so I do not grow them. Within the same family is the range of Purple Sprouting Broccoli and that range now has 2 F1 Hybrids
and probably more on the way but the hybridizing was done to come out at the end still as Broccoli but with the Calabrese somehow their hybridizing was to increase size and shelf life and all that could be said bad about F1's. To me that is really the only group of F1's that have gone that way. I can now pick fresh PSB every month of the year and enjoy all of it.
So I do not grow F1 Calabrese but people take that as the benchmark and condemn all F1's which is totally wrong. I personally do not grow many F1's but that's probably at my age I am satisfied with what I have been growing since before F1's were available to home gardeners. However when I produced plants for mail order I used a mix of seeds to give my lists balance.
The Real Seed Company actually condemn F1 seeds and tell their prospective customers that their own hybrids are far better. I personally would prefer the devil I know than one over which I have no chance to check out. The seeds that they sell are probably F1 seeds but not registered. What could be worse!
They are trying to use the Anti F1 blurb as a selling point and that can never be right. They are preying on people who frankly know no better.
JB.
Seed Catalogues
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter
John, you have it right. I don't dismiss anything outright out of pure prejudice. As far as I am concerned the big problem on F1s is the fact that at any time that variety can be withdrawn from the market. If I have spent at least one season testing it to know whether it is good for my purposes, and this certainly doesn't always work out favourably, it is a considerable upset to find that I cannot grow it any more. To take cucumbers,typically it is not worth growing less than the whole packet of 4 seeds and if that variety does not prove useful it is quite a lot of my resources wasted. I was lucky this year, found 2 winners in Galileo and Diana but I cannot remember the names of all those discontinued varieties.With tomatoes I now buy ahead of requirements, they keep well and it gives me time to find potential replacements if needed.
There is one F1 tomato, Vanessa, which I would never grow as it has been bred for long shelflife. The on-the-vine tomatoes that I have tried were a bright colour but a disgusting flavour and hard as a billiard ball, after a month they were still the same. That is what happens when the breeders work to an ill-concieved idea of what the supermarkets say their customers want. On the vine isn't the same as off the plant at its best.
On keeping a strain pure, you will always get variants, even with F1s the parents will have variants and these will have to be removed to keep the characteristics of the strain pure. I wounder how many strains are now stored long term in seed banks.
Allan
There is one F1 tomato, Vanessa, which I would never grow as it has been bred for long shelflife. The on-the-vine tomatoes that I have tried were a bright colour but a disgusting flavour and hard as a billiard ball, after a month they were still the same. That is what happens when the breeders work to an ill-concieved idea of what the supermarkets say their customers want. On the vine isn't the same as off the plant at its best.
On keeping a strain pure, you will always get variants, even with F1s the parents will have variants and these will have to be removed to keep the characteristics of the strain pure. I wounder how many strains are now stored long term in seed banks.
Allan
Hi Allan,
Out of the blue I have received a Plants of Distinction seed catalogue this morning and it lists I think 115 different Tomatoes and about 55 Peppers
of which I have never seen the like.
They have a website but all it really says is the information to request a catalogue and to say their Shop will be open on line on the afternoon of Tuesday the 24th of October,
There are certainly an awful lot of Tomatoes that I have never heard of and Peppers the same. There are also some Salad Leaves that may interest you.
What disappoints me is that there are no cultural
details in the catalogue whatsoever.
I will post the website but apart from being able to request a catalogue there is very little to be gained.
www.plantsofdistinction.co.uk
JB.
Out of the blue I have received a Plants of Distinction seed catalogue this morning and it lists I think 115 different Tomatoes and about 55 Peppers
of which I have never seen the like.
They have a website but all it really says is the information to request a catalogue and to say their Shop will be open on line on the afternoon of Tuesday the 24th of October,
There are certainly an awful lot of Tomatoes that I have never heard of and Peppers the same. There are also some Salad Leaves that may interest you.
What disappoints me is that there are no cultural
details in the catalogue whatsoever.
I will post the website but apart from being able to request a catalogue there is very little to be gained.
www.plantsofdistinction.co.uk
JB.
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Deb P
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I purchased quite a few tomatoes and peppers from POD this year, but to be honest, I would not grow more than two thirds of the tomato varieties I chose again! Still, it was good experimenting! The peppers were much more of a success, and I've still got some of the original seed and will grow all again next year.
The packets all come with the same very generic cultural instructions; however the only seeds I had problems germinating were sweetcorn and melons/watermelons. The forum sorted me out though, success with surface sown sweetcorn, and higher germination temp. in the airing cupbord sorted the melons!
The packets all come with the same very generic cultural instructions; however the only seeds I had problems germinating were sweetcorn and melons/watermelons. The forum sorted me out though, success with surface sown sweetcorn, and higher germination temp. in the airing cupbord sorted the melons!
I don't know why I should be interested in dipping into another 115 varieties of tomatoes. I hate to think what would be involved in testing all of those out. I did get as far as trying out a number of varieties from the late Totally Tomatoes catalogue, some seeds are still in their packets. At my age it is prudent to restrict any such trials to no more than two unknown varieties per year. As it is I shall have to spend extra effort in the coming season sorting out what differences there are between seeds of nominally the same cultivar from different seedsmen.To do this I shall have to ensure that everything I grow has a reference to identify the actual packet from which the seeds were used.
On a totally different subject I am still experimenting on extending the cropping of radishes now I can use Tropf Blumat watering system to apply watering automatically. The other step forward is that I now have enough saved seeds of Polycress to last several years.This is all rather far from the original topic.
Allan
On a totally different subject I am still experimenting on extending the cropping of radishes now I can use Tropf Blumat watering system to apply watering automatically. The other step forward is that I now have enough saved seeds of Polycress to last several years.This is all rather far from the original topic.
Allan
What an interesting thread this has been. I would definitely look at the Alan Romans site. The packets are not absolutely bursting with seeds but we often don't want masses for a veg. patch and waste a lot. They do come very promptly and his seed potato selection is excellent. I tend to look through the Organic catalogue, DTBrown and compare them with AR. Now I've got a few more to look at.
Johnboy, If you actually read the Real seed catalogue it makes no claim about "pure seed", only that which is open pollinated and has been grown for years in varying areas thus giving GENETIC DIVERSITY.
To spout off that their seed is probably unregistered F1 seed is preposterous and quite frankly Jb I am suprised and sadened by your blinkered and biggoted comments about a company and catalogue of which you so obviously have had no dealings with at all. Many individuals grow their seed and send small quantities back to them for sale the next year, Me included and have always found it to be excellent. Before you call me anti F1 seed, I am not and about 40% of my crops are F1. As Allan says you are very much in the hands of the seed supplier with F1, whereas open pollinted seed can be saved by anyone and most have been tried and tested over generations and are still going strong
Please dont take this as a dig at you JB but too many people who have 30 years worth of experience make me wonder if that is the case or whether they have one years experience repeated 30 times as they are so entrenched in their view point.
I count myself as a fairly experienced gardener but am always ready to listen to other people be they guru's or novices as you just dont know where a good Idea will spring from. The smaller the ego the more experience
I tend to find people have, and thats in all walks of life, not just gardening.
To spout off that their seed is probably unregistered F1 seed is preposterous and quite frankly Jb I am suprised and sadened by your blinkered and biggoted comments about a company and catalogue of which you so obviously have had no dealings with at all. Many individuals grow their seed and send small quantities back to them for sale the next year, Me included and have always found it to be excellent. Before you call me anti F1 seed, I am not and about 40% of my crops are F1. As Allan says you are very much in the hands of the seed supplier with F1, whereas open pollinted seed can be saved by anyone and most have been tried and tested over generations and are still going strong
Please dont take this as a dig at you JB but too many people who have 30 years worth of experience make me wonder if that is the case or whether they have one years experience repeated 30 times as they are so entrenched in their view point.
I count myself as a fairly experienced gardener but am always ready to listen to other people be they guru's or novices as you just dont know where a good Idea will spring from. The smaller the ego the more experience
I tend to find people have, and thats in all walks of life, not just gardening.
Hi Piglet,
I read theirblurb some years back and the literature spoke of their own hybrids.
They are against F1 hybrids and explained that when the owner was at university he learned that they were not what he would use.
I read it only once and that was enough to put me off for life.
Again I ask for a definition of an F1 hybrid.
JB.
I read theirblurb some years back and the literature spoke of their own hybrids.
They are against F1 hybrids and explained that when the owner was at university he learned that they were not what he would use.
I read it only once and that was enough to put me off for life.
Again I ask for a definition of an F1 hybrid.
JB.
F1 hybrids are the first generation seeds/plants resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types, the offspring of which produce a new, uniform seed variety with specific characteristics from both parents. Crossing specific parent plants produces a hybrid seed (plant) by means of controlled pollination. To produce consistent F1 hybrids, the original cross must be repeated each season.
JB just because YOU dont like The Real Seed Company still doesnt justify your spurious claims that they use unregistered F1 seed or that they dont know what they are talking about.
Its A thing called choice, they choose to promote open pollinated seeds that have been around for generations and not F1 seed that very often are quite "fly by night" varieties. Just remember, when the black stuff runs out and we have to grow our own then we will be relying on those open pollinated varieties and I for one would like that genetic diversity to be around then even if only as a fall back. There is massive interest in old varieties. I for one am quite open to either type and Thats my choice.
I totally agree with both you and Allan that some F1 are crap and some are wonderful. The problem is that with F1, without the seed company you have no seed whereas open polinated varieties are available to every one
Its A thing called choice, they choose to promote open pollinated seeds that have been around for generations and not F1 seed that very often are quite "fly by night" varieties. Just remember, when the black stuff runs out and we have to grow our own then we will be relying on those open pollinated varieties and I for one would like that genetic diversity to be around then even if only as a fall back. There is massive interest in old varieties. I for one am quite open to either type and Thats my choice.
I totally agree with both you and Allan that some F1 are crap and some are wonderful. The problem is that with F1, without the seed company you have no seed whereas open polinated varieties are available to every one
Don't put me down as calling any F1s crap just because they are F1. They are bred the way they are because that is what is asked for, if there is any fault it lies with the specifier. If people want a tomato with a long shelf life it is hardly surprising that it is not fit to eat. F1 cucumber for instance are far better than non-F1 for indoors and the choice is enormous.
I was very sorry when the F2 sprout Troika was discontinued, an excellent sprout at a budget seed price.
Allan
I was very sorry when the F2 sprout Troika was discontinued, an excellent sprout at a budget seed price.
Allan
Hi Piglet,
Thanks for the definition of an F1.
Would you now kindly explain to me how open pollinated 'Named' varieties are produced in order to keep the plant true to name, keeping in mind that they are open pollinated.
JB.
Thanks for the definition of an F1.
Would you now kindly explain to me how open pollinated 'Named' varieties are produced in order to keep the plant true to name, keeping in mind that they are open pollinated.
JB.
Re. OP seed. The same problem must surely occur re. the parents of any F1 hybrid seed, it is just that it is one generation back. Or has science progressed so far that one can now specify a living thing by listing its genes, or at least verify identical ones.
Allan
Allan
Hybridization,(to make F1)is when some technical method is applied to two open pollinated varieties growing side by side to ensure that every seed has received pollen from one breed (the father) and is grown on a distinctly different breed (the mother). This is done in many methods, the most commonly know being corn detasseling. In this method, three rows of the father breed are planted, and then one of the mother, and over and over. The mother rows are detasseled (had their pollen removed) ensuring that any pollen they receive came from the father rows. The mother's seeds can then be harvested as what is known as an F1 (first generation) hybrid. If the offspring of the F1 hybrid were all grown as an open pollinated variety and the seed saved, that would then be the F2 hybrid generation, and so on.
It is important to understand what the genetic ramifications of these two methods are. There are many many genes occurring in pairs on the chromosomes of every living organism. Of all those organisms that were sexually reproduced (including both discussed methods above), one of every pair of genes is received from the mother and the other from the father.
These genes pairing off on their chromosomes have all the preset genetic material to make the organism what it is. If the genes were different, the organism would look and act differently. In a hybridized variety, the two parents would each have different genes.
Different genes opposite each other on a chromosome are often represented by different capitalization of a letter. For example, if I were growing an open pollinated tomato that had a characteristic that was consistent, I could say that the gene controlling that characteristic would be represented by the G gene. As all of the mother and father plants share this characteristic, all of the plants in the patch would then have a GG for the matching pair of genes. Now if I had another variety of open pollinated tomato that had a different gene in that spot, I could say that variety has an xx in the same spot on the chromosome.
Now when they hybridize the two varieties to get the F1 generation, they can say they will all have a Gg in this spot, as they got one gene from the GG mother and one gene from the gg Father.
Now say we were to look at the F2 generation. Well, there are four possibilities. Either the seeds will get a G from the father and a G from the mother, a G from the father and a g from the mother, a g from the father and a G from the mother, or a g from the father and a g from the mother. Therefore, half of the plants will be Gg, a quarter will be gg, and a quarter will be GG.
Now say that there were a thousand different genes that were different between the original mother and father. Multiply the thousand by the three possibilities and you see you have the possibility for 3000 distinct varieties to emerge in the F2 generation.
Therefore, if you grow out an open pollinated variety and save it for seed, you will get offspring that are similar to the parents. On the other hand, if you purchase an F1 hybrid seed and you save it for seed and attempt to grow it for seed, the F2 generation will be a very random mix and will not serve any consistent need, as all the plants will be wildly different.
So if you grow an open pollinated variety and you like it, you can save it and adapt it for your area and enjoy the full pleasure of taking the plants through their entire life cycles as they produce for you from generation to generation. If you grow an F1 hybrid seed and you like it, you must go back to the source you purchased it from if you wish to grow it out again.
A definition of open pollination
"Open pollination is pollination by insects, birds, wind, or other natural mechanisms. The seeds of open-pollinated plants will produce new generations of those plants. This is in contrast with hybrid plants, which are artificially cross-bred varieties that do not produce reliable seed"
Most modern varieties of tomato are self pollinating, and will not cross. The anthers on tomato flowers (which make the pollen) are fused together to make a tight cone that insects cannot enter. Usually the stigma (the receptive surface for receiving pollen) is very short, and so is located deep inside this cone of anthers. No insects can get to it and the only pollen that can fertilise it comes from the surrounding cone of anthers.
In a few varieties however, the stigma is much longer, sticking out beyond the cone of anthers. In this case, insects can get to it, and there is the chance of cross-pollination. Varieties with longer stigmas include potato leaved tomatoes and currant tomatoes. To avoid crossing only grow one variety with exposed stigmas.
Most peas and aubergines are the same and whilst French beans and peppers also self pollinate they will also readily cross and thus if you want reliable seed need to be grown in isolation or several metres away from other varieties. For my peppers I put small net cages on 1 plant to keep them true and remove it once fruit has formed. These fruit are kept for seed (only 1 or 2 are needed).
I hope that this answers your query JB but I am sure that you knew it already.
It is important to understand what the genetic ramifications of these two methods are. There are many many genes occurring in pairs on the chromosomes of every living organism. Of all those organisms that were sexually reproduced (including both discussed methods above), one of every pair of genes is received from the mother and the other from the father.
These genes pairing off on their chromosomes have all the preset genetic material to make the organism what it is. If the genes were different, the organism would look and act differently. In a hybridized variety, the two parents would each have different genes.
Different genes opposite each other on a chromosome are often represented by different capitalization of a letter. For example, if I were growing an open pollinated tomato that had a characteristic that was consistent, I could say that the gene controlling that characteristic would be represented by the G gene. As all of the mother and father plants share this characteristic, all of the plants in the patch would then have a GG for the matching pair of genes. Now if I had another variety of open pollinated tomato that had a different gene in that spot, I could say that variety has an xx in the same spot on the chromosome.
Now when they hybridize the two varieties to get the F1 generation, they can say they will all have a Gg in this spot, as they got one gene from the GG mother and one gene from the gg Father.
Now say we were to look at the F2 generation. Well, there are four possibilities. Either the seeds will get a G from the father and a G from the mother, a G from the father and a g from the mother, a g from the father and a G from the mother, or a g from the father and a g from the mother. Therefore, half of the plants will be Gg, a quarter will be gg, and a quarter will be GG.
Now say that there were a thousand different genes that were different between the original mother and father. Multiply the thousand by the three possibilities and you see you have the possibility for 3000 distinct varieties to emerge in the F2 generation.
Therefore, if you grow out an open pollinated variety and save it for seed, you will get offspring that are similar to the parents. On the other hand, if you purchase an F1 hybrid seed and you save it for seed and attempt to grow it for seed, the F2 generation will be a very random mix and will not serve any consistent need, as all the plants will be wildly different.
So if you grow an open pollinated variety and you like it, you can save it and adapt it for your area and enjoy the full pleasure of taking the plants through their entire life cycles as they produce for you from generation to generation. If you grow an F1 hybrid seed and you like it, you must go back to the source you purchased it from if you wish to grow it out again.
A definition of open pollination
"Open pollination is pollination by insects, birds, wind, or other natural mechanisms. The seeds of open-pollinated plants will produce new generations of those plants. This is in contrast with hybrid plants, which are artificially cross-bred varieties that do not produce reliable seed"
Most modern varieties of tomato are self pollinating, and will not cross. The anthers on tomato flowers (which make the pollen) are fused together to make a tight cone that insects cannot enter. Usually the stigma (the receptive surface for receiving pollen) is very short, and so is located deep inside this cone of anthers. No insects can get to it and the only pollen that can fertilise it comes from the surrounding cone of anthers.
In a few varieties however, the stigma is much longer, sticking out beyond the cone of anthers. In this case, insects can get to it, and there is the chance of cross-pollination. Varieties with longer stigmas include potato leaved tomatoes and currant tomatoes. To avoid crossing only grow one variety with exposed stigmas.
Most peas and aubergines are the same and whilst French beans and peppers also self pollinate they will also readily cross and thus if you want reliable seed need to be grown in isolation or several metres away from other varieties. For my peppers I put small net cages on 1 plant to keep them true and remove it once fruit has formed. These fruit are kept for seed (only 1 or 2 are needed).
I hope that this answers your query JB but I am sure that you knew it already.
Hi Piglet,
Thank you for the detailed explanations and must congratulate you on your copying and pasting technique.
But I'm very much afraid that it doesn't really answer the question I asked.
How do you maintain a strain through open pollination, for example, 'Greyhound' as Greyhound and PSB 'Rudolph' as Rudolph? Where did they come from in the first place? What is the method used called.
JB.
Thank you for the detailed explanations and must congratulate you on your copying and pasting technique.
But I'm very much afraid that it doesn't really answer the question I asked.
How do you maintain a strain through open pollination, for example, 'Greyhound' as Greyhound and PSB 'Rudolph' as Rudolph? Where did they come from in the first place? What is the method used called.
JB.