organic gardening: yay or nay

[dan3008]

I'm quite interested in peoples opinions on organic gardening. I'm expecting quite a mix of ideas and thoughts, so lets play nice (we always do) and I'm going to open with my opinions:

Personally, i try and have an organic garden, but frankly I'm too have a 100% organic garden. So I follow my own set of "organic" policies (I refer to my ideals as ecoganic on my blog, which I'll link to once its publish worthy) but basically, I follow organic methods and give it a boost where needed with fertilizers. I try and avoid anything that could damage the natural ecosystem of my garden. I even avoid slug pellets, which isn't an issue since ive got a family of thrushes living in next doors tree, which eat all the slugs and snails
so in my opinion here are the pros and cons of my 'ecoganic' approach

Pros
- minimal chemicals in the soil/veg, therefore less in our bodies. Whatever your feelings about chemical pesticides, they are a chemical, and as a minimum the harvest needs washing to make sure there's no residue. by not using these chemicals I don't end up eating them in my food.

- reduced 'running costs'. composting stuff yourself is free and manure ect is usually cheap. Plus companion planting to deter pests gives another crop, and costs less than pesticides.

- Nothing is wasted, even the weeds get put to use. when i moved in, the garden was overrun with nettles and comfry, and they are still the bane of my garden. However, i set up a plant digester, which i put the nettles and comfry in (roots and all) and it brakes down into a smelly but nutritious plant feed. Some grass clippings ontop also help get the rot started.

- Nature friendly, ever since i was a kid and tried to save a sick owl that had eaten a poisoned mouse i have always avoided getting rid of pests with poison. The owl died, and I was heart broken

- i get to try unusual variates, Disease and pest resistant varieties are often more unusual heirloom varieties, sometimes even more tasty than the traditional variety and i can save seeds

Cons
- I haven't masted companion planting, so i still lose about 1/8th of my crops to pests...

- nettles... need i say more

- Costs more to set up, buying a compost bin ect can be costly


So, what do you guys think?

[Westi]

* I grow with mostly organic principals but don't buy in organic seeds or plants all the time.
* I use slug pellets if necessary, but not routinely.
* I never spray with any insecticides or stuff but use boosters, like seaweed foliar feed if needed.
* The muck I cover the empty beds with is just from the piles dropped around the site, so no providence comes with that.
* I make a point of trying new things but have a steadfast list of types of veg plants that don't let me down.
* I'm not 100% convinced with all companion planting - carrot flies are not hoodwinked by growing near spring onions but I have sacrificial nasturtiums.
* I think prevention is better so have invested in lots of environmesh & netting.
* I tolerate the lottie bunny - just He is wearing out his welcome though!

I think I represent the middle ground. I'm aware of what I don't want in contact with my food, so don't use some products but I'm not about to let my crops be decimated so try to prevent it. I'll take what on offer to improve my soil & like to challenge myself a little bit each year growing something new.

Westi

[peter]

I call my approach pragmatic gardening, I won't use chemical treatments unless I'll get totally beaten without them. I won't try and get others to use them and don't expect others to stop me from using legal stuff on my gardening.

I'll use Growmore and Roundup, but I'm not precious about either.
Having bindweed in clay and a busted up back I have no issue with targeted applications of roundup.
Growmore and chicken pellets go in the squash bed.

Organic gardening products?
Overpriced and over rated by their suppliers.

Inexperienced or new allotment holders most likely to fail, those who look at the weed ridden jungle and say we want to void any chemicals. A two or three application course of roundup can get a plot manageable by a newbie and never need anything more then the occasional paintbrush application to bindweed laid on an old plastic bag. In my experience those who want to be organic always vastly underestimate the manual effort required and I applaud those of them who succeed and hate the tv shows that skate over the work needed. I always try and give a balanced comparison to newbies basically it's hard work either way.

On thing chemical, what I do object to and really gets me irate, is being unable to freely use manure due to the idiotic permission granted for the use of aminopyralid to clear broadleaved weeds from grassland. Combined with widespread farming ignorance (in both senses of the word) of the rules supposed to govern it's use and the through many hands nature of hay sales to the I have a horse on a tennis court sized paddock brigade, the use of manure has become like the national lottery.
You always lose!

BTW we are made of chemicals, organic plants are made of chemicals, chemicals per see are not an issue.
It's the complex ones that can interfere with biological processes or just plain toxic ones. Even then there are degrees, copper is natural as is iron, they occur in soil and are needed by plants in trace amounts, so you could say that copper compunds for mould treatment are OK, just not in large doses, or you could say no I don't want to have it on my spuds.
.

[Geoff]

I was going to use the word pragmatic but Peter got in first - favourite word of Johnboy's when we have had this debate previously.
"Pragmatic : guided by practical experience and observation rather than theory".
When I said in the lunar thread that linking moon planting to organic practice was piling myth on myth I was meaning the evangelistic extremes of organic. What is more organic than peat, if I use it I am not organic.
Perhaps like everybody on here I avoid the use of "cides" as much as possible but I do make a few exceptions. I do use slug pellets but only the ferric phosphate type. Probably the only nasty insecticide I use regularly is ant killer for wood lice (I don't know the active ingredient). If I don't dust under seed trays I find stumps of just germinated seedlings, wood lice are a much underrated pest. I don't need herbicides on the veg plot these days but I do use Roundup type in other parts of the garden. I do sometimes treat Potatoes against blight. I use large amounts of compost and some manure. I use a variety of fertilisers including Growmore as I don't believe there is any difference to the plants or the soil. I also use organic fertilisers because they usually are slow release so using a mixture of Growmore and FBB for example you get a longer effect from one application. I wonder how many of Peter's first time plotters fail by under feeding because they follow advice like that elsewhere in this month's magazine "use 2oz per square yard of Growmore or chicken pellets"? Growmore 7:7:7 NPK, chicken pellets 4:3:2 so less than half the value and with a Calcium payload as well that you might not need (especially on Potatoes).
So, like all things, keep a balance; loads of organic matter, appropriate fertilisers, cides as a last resort - not organic, real life!

[richard p]

ive been away for a while,basically health problems of elderly parents have taken up a lot of my time for the last couple of years.

last year i did no veg gardening at all and not a lot the previos year ,just picked some of the soft fruit,

anyway took the petrol strimmer to the veg plot yesterday and flattened it, and have cleared out one poly tunnel, theres cooch grass in the tunnel. nettles ,cooch and blackberries on the veg plot.

im thinking roundup in the tunnel as a one of on the cooch grass, then will probably do one outside bed and cover the other 4 with black plastic.

the poly tunnels are over 15 years old now ,the one ive cleared to use this spring has a few small holes in the plastic, itll have to do this summer and aim to recoverin late summer the other one has developed a large split so that will do that when the warm weather arrives. maybe in time for some tomato plants but if it dont get done till summer it wot hurt.... next year be up and running in both .

whilst the kids were small we used no pesticides at all . as the years have gone on ,( and the cooch grass has got worse) ive used roundup sparingly , its a case of juggling timeand other commitments, in an ideal world id spend all day diging weeds , in reality ive got half an hour so have to get chemical help, but use as little as possible.

as with most things it not black and white choices , its shades of grey ( hopefully not 50 of them)

[Ricard with an H]

I have such a dim view of pharmaceutical jiggery-pokery that I won't use chemicals on the soil I eat from though I do hammer weeds with dodgy chemicals accepted as safe by some. And I used slug pellets during the year I didn't have a dog.

I suppose like most of you I'm a convenient organic gardener.

Pragmatic yes.

[dan3008]

Pragmatic... I like that word

[snooky]

pragmatic
praɡˈmatɪk/
adjective
adjective: pragmatic

dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Probably the best way to approach gardening---and life.

[Pawty]

I'm the same as pretty much everyone else 'pragmatic'.

I don't use organic seed, I don't buy organic compost, I use slug pellets and insect spray ( but only when essential).

I have an allotment and grow my own veg because I like to eat seasonally, know where my food has come from, appreciate how much work and time it takes to get that one prize squash, get lots of different varieties, and reduce food miles. It also helps me clear my mind, get away from stresses at work and keeps me fit.

I don't buy organic veg (when I need to buy veg), I buy local meat but it's not organic.

And of course, unless all of your neighbours are organic, you can never truely be! My allotment is also relativly close to a road unfortunately so trying to be organic would be pointless.

The quality of veg you get back = the love and work you put in.

Sorry... It's been a long week.....

[Pa Snip]

Pawty has saved me some eco-effort.

She has virtually written my reply for me. Thanks Pawty

Main difference is we don't have a main road going by, but do have light aircraft flying directly over the plot at 50 > 60 ft as they land or take off, subject to wind direction.

[PLUMPUDDING]

I follow more or less the same as everyone else.
I don't use bought chemical sprays on any fruit and veg but sometimes use homemade garlic or other sprays if necessary, but I use Roundup on some difficult gravel paths in the ornamental areas.
It is usually easier to use enviromesh to keep insects and cats off ,but I do use slug pellets under the mesh while the plants are vulnerable as well as having occasional night time slug patrols.
I have three large main compost heaps which are very productive plus several dalek type ones, black sacks for perennial weeds like dandelions which rot down beautifully in a year or so, and other bins for leaf mould, and a reserve heap for anything I wouldn't risk putting in the main bins. I burn anything that looks diseased, which is rare. All the hen hut cleanings are composted and even the shavings rot down quickly with the high nitrogen hen manure and active hot heap. So I spend very little on soil improvers and can get free well rotted horse manure from a safe source. Saying that I'm not averse to adding a bit of BFB or Growmore or lime.
I grow lots of marigolds and nasturtiums which usually self seed around the veg plot to attract hover flies and distract black fly.
I also bought a batch of ladybirds and ladybird larvae last year to tackle the greenfly, as the resident ladybirds emerged early when it came warm in April, before the greenfly appeared and then disappeared when the greenfly hatched later on.
Common sense and working with nature rather than waging a battle against it works very well for me.

[robo]

It's virtually impossible not to spray with weed killer on our plot we are surrounded by wild fields on a summers day you would think it was snowing there is that many airborne seeds flying over the fence, that apart I do compost everything and do not use any bought fertilizer , I have three large bins for chicken droppings one composter and one barrel that you turn every three days , I spray the chicken hut twice a week with red might killer I put white wine vinegar and vita boost in their water the result is alcoholic chickens but they look healthy, I'm in the process of trying to attract more than my share of wild birds by making a feed station I'm hoping they will feed on slugs and snails as well as eating the food I feed them with ,I protect all my greens with mesh if I didn't I would not get anything to grow higher than six inches when the cabbage whites come in spring they come in flocks there are that many it's a sight to behold

[Ricard with an H]

You-all just rang a bell.

Last year, in an effort to save money and to be closer to organic principals in the same way as most of us are describing, one local farmer hammered his grazing with slurry. This was cow slurry rather than cow slurry mixed with human waste. (Yes, it's going on )

Certain obvious culprits in the area complained about the stink, previously those same culprits complained about all the chemicals he was spreading on the land instead of cow slurry that he had used before but stopped because of the complInts from downwind villages.

How come we have these idiots and did I tell you about the cock crowing problem, the bird scarer problem, holes in the road, noise on Sunday and noise until late during silage harvest and etc-etc.

We live on a farm or at least within a farming area/community.

Lucky us, eh.