O.K.guys,lets get this right..the bacteria will leave the soil if there's no organic matter but artificials will not in themselves kill them..is that right? and Johnboy says that trace elements can be difficult to obtain from organic sources so...here comes the question...how did they manage to give plants a balanced diet before non-organics came on the scene? Are we back to things like powdered rock dust or did they just expect less of their plants?
Happy New Year,
Carole.
Organic
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Geoff
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How can compost increase trace elements?
If they aren’t in your soil, they cannot get into your plants so they aren’t in your compost!
Some plants may move and concentrate them. Deep rooted Comfrey added to the compost or used as a mulch may make them available from the sub-soil. But the chances are that if the top-soil is deficient the sub-soil will be the same and the only way to correct the deficiency is to import it.
Carole asks what happened before chemicals were available. A long way back I suspect things either suceeded or failed then gradually things were grown where they prospered. Then the empirical knowledge of what improved things built up; adding lime, adding wood ash, using manures, using minerals etc. Then science took over and found out why things worked and allowed us to focus improvement.
If they aren’t in your soil, they cannot get into your plants so they aren’t in your compost!
Some plants may move and concentrate them. Deep rooted Comfrey added to the compost or used as a mulch may make them available from the sub-soil. But the chances are that if the top-soil is deficient the sub-soil will be the same and the only way to correct the deficiency is to import it.
Carole asks what happened before chemicals were available. A long way back I suspect things either suceeded or failed then gradually things were grown where they prospered. Then the empirical knowledge of what improved things built up; adding lime, adding wood ash, using manures, using minerals etc. Then science took over and found out why things worked and allowed us to focus improvement.
Hi Carole,
I can understand why you are confused and this is one of the reasons that Peat's letter was so wrong.
It painted a completely false senario.
You ask what happened with plants prior to the application of chemicals but the question should be what happened prior to the application of Biological science. The answer was that prior to science taking a hand, well not a lot.
Geoff has adequately dealt with the aspect of lack of trace elements in you soil which will not appear in your compost made from your own scources.
If you bring in composting items for your home made compost you have absolutely no idea what you are putting in and if it is from the general surrounds then probably are lacking whatever your plot is.
There is a great tendency to make nitrogen with your own compost and although that is not wrong it is unbalanced. Human Beings thrive on a balanced diet and plants are no different. Using home compost the tendency is to over do the Nitrogen which leads to lush growth and very open to attack by just about every pest but mainly Aphids. Without the application of imported matter, other than vegetative, is therefore very sadly open to question where organics are concerened. It was said recently by somebody that Organics is not a religion so therefore why should the application of some man made fertilizers be treated as a 'Mortal Sin.'
I have been growing vegetables since the Spring of 1943 and have seen many many things come and go and from the early 1950's have been interested in Organics and the worst thing that ever happened to organics has been making the Soil Association the governing body. They are famous for treating theory as fact and they are dogmatic about their false facts and now a whole generation of gardeners have grown up on a load of theories not facts. I have no wonder why people are confused.
Please take a look at this website.
http://www1.sac.ac.uk/cropsci/External/ ... OFTS38.pdf and it may help you to be less confused.
I can understand why you are confused and this is one of the reasons that Peat's letter was so wrong.
It painted a completely false senario.
You ask what happened with plants prior to the application of chemicals but the question should be what happened prior to the application of Biological science. The answer was that prior to science taking a hand, well not a lot.
Geoff has adequately dealt with the aspect of lack of trace elements in you soil which will not appear in your compost made from your own scources.
If you bring in composting items for your home made compost you have absolutely no idea what you are putting in and if it is from the general surrounds then probably are lacking whatever your plot is.
There is a great tendency to make nitrogen with your own compost and although that is not wrong it is unbalanced. Human Beings thrive on a balanced diet and plants are no different. Using home compost the tendency is to over do the Nitrogen which leads to lush growth and very open to attack by just about every pest but mainly Aphids. Without the application of imported matter, other than vegetative, is therefore very sadly open to question where organics are concerened. It was said recently by somebody that Organics is not a religion so therefore why should the application of some man made fertilizers be treated as a 'Mortal Sin.'
I have been growing vegetables since the Spring of 1943 and have seen many many things come and go and from the early 1950's have been interested in Organics and the worst thing that ever happened to organics has been making the Soil Association the governing body. They are famous for treating theory as fact and they are dogmatic about their false facts and now a whole generation of gardeners have grown up on a load of theories not facts. I have no wonder why people are confused.
Please take a look at this website.
http://www1.sac.ac.uk/cropsci/External/ ... OFTS38.pdf and it may help you to be less confused.
JB.
IF the organic garden is a closed system, the soil is fed by compost made from plant residues grown in the system, and large quantities of edible plant matter removed , then soil depletion must result. that is simple logic and unarguable (go on prove me wrong). a long term susstainable system must recycle and import nutrients, the edible plants removed should be brought back (or replaced). quantities of animal (inc human?) manures or compost, seaweed etc can brought back into the system. plant roots can bring up nutrients from the subsoil. natural groundwater flow, floodwater or irrigation will also bring in minerals and nutrients. some nutrients are supplied by the air as in sulphure being deposited or nitrogen fixed by bacteria. there is also evidence that some plants are clever enough to change elements into others ( something conventional blinkered scientists either say is impossible or spend millions trying to do with particle accelerators).
sunlight and other electromagnetic radiations are also imported into the system.
plants as part of the planets ecosystem have thrived for millions of years without artificial fertilisers and pesticides.
sunlight and other electromagnetic radiations are also imported into the system.
plants as part of the planets ecosystem have thrived for millions of years without artificial fertilisers and pesticides.
Thanks for the web site Johnboy,I've had a look and it does seem as though we are all dependent on location,soil p.h.,water table level etc for the natural movement of trace elements in the soil.I've had problems with cauliflowers browning and I had identified it as probably boron deficiency which I read can be worse in areas of high p.h. and being as my allotment is situated just below an old chalk pit the lime in the water is tying up my boron! So I've probably got to put trace elements on just before planting which is apparently an accepted organic practice.Give me a nudge if I've got this wrong!
Carole.
Carole.
You might like to explore the subject further. Just type N(space)P(space)K into Google and see what comes up. I can't say I grasp it all but I'm impressed!
I would just like to say that when balanced feeds are applied or when organic matter breaks down in the soil the rate of release of the three main components in timing is quite different. Usually the N comes early and the P stays around for ages. The slow release of N by many plant materials is an advantage but isn't necessarily tied in with them being organic. Urea and blood are both fast release. I read it all in a book years ago, can't find the details now but still looking.
I would just like to say that when balanced feeds are applied or when organic matter breaks down in the soil the rate of release of the three main components in timing is quite different. Usually the N comes early and the P stays around for ages. The slow release of N by many plant materials is an advantage but isn't necessarily tied in with them being organic. Urea and blood are both fast release. I read it all in a book years ago, can't find the details now but still looking.
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Geoff
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The only reply I can think of to Richard's post is a request. Can I please have some seeds of your alchemy plant so I can change all my base trace elements into gold? I'm sure they would make a fine underplanting for my five pound note tree and I would be able to get rich quick.
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Colin Miles
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Yes - seeds that convert elements would be wondrous indeed! I think there is possibly confusion over plants preferential accumulating chemicals like Arsenic (possibly useful in Bangladesh) and Gold (not sufficient to make you a millionaire!).
Regarding Trace elements, their presence in plants does not necessarily mean that they are vital to needs of the plants. 'Simple' chemistry dictates that, if they are present in the soil, plants will take them up, in the same way that birds, animals, humans, etc., do. And there is considerable debate about whether or not certain chemicals are useful or not. If you look at the formulation of man-made fertilisers like Phostrogen you will see that trace elements are added. Whether these have changed over the years as knowledge has improved I don't know.
Regarding Trace elements, their presence in plants does not necessarily mean that they are vital to needs of the plants. 'Simple' chemistry dictates that, if they are present in the soil, plants will take them up, in the same way that birds, animals, humans, etc., do. And there is considerable debate about whether or not certain chemicals are useful or not. If you look at the formulation of man-made fertilisers like Phostrogen you will see that trace elements are added. Whether these have changed over the years as knowledge has improved I don't know.
This web site from an organic fertilizer producer also helps to explain the use of trace elements available to organic growers.
http://www.carrs-fertiliser.co.uk/organicchoice/organicchoice2.html
This seems to be a subject which is glossed over in the organic debate(or possibly buried!excuse the pun).
Carole.
http://www.carrs-fertiliser.co.uk/organicchoice/organicchoice2.html
This seems to be a subject which is glossed over in the organic debate(or possibly buried!excuse the pun).
Carole.
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Guest
I have read with interest the replies to my original posting,following many links.I will now feel happier using many of the original fertilizers but will certainly ensure that the amounts are minimal believing that any harm done would be by an excessive use.