Contribute to the KG debate - compact vs traditional varieties

[KG Steve]

Hi All
Funny you should all be talking about contributions to the mag. I'd like to ask you for another now! (Sorry Nature's Babe, as you suspect I can't offer to pay you a fee, but rest assured that both I and Lady Lettuce are very grateful for your input .

This month's Over The Garden Fence has a slightly unusual theme - Bob and Edwin are debating the pros and cons of old varieties V's new compact ones. With small plots and half plots more the norm, is it better to go for new modern compact (and disease resistant) varieties or do you still prefer the old, bigger, taller crops for their flavour. Partly of course it depends on how much space you have but also as Edwin has pointed out, the smaller varieties look neater (important to some) and generally need less support and attention.

Maybe you feel also that small is better since there is only so much of anything you can eat at one sitting, or would want to eat in a season.

Once again I am grateful for your contributions - I really appreciate them and I don't doubt that you'll tell me if you get fed up with my asking for your views!

[Colin Miles]

I first looked at the questions a while ago and couldn't decide how to answer. Having looked again I still can't honestly answer.

You say

With small plots and half plots more the norm, is it better to go for new modern compact (and disease resistant) varieties or do you still prefer the old, bigger, taller crops for their flavour. Partly of course it depends on how much space you have but also as Edwin has pointed out, the smaller varieties look neater (important to some) and generally need less support and attention.

Perhaps I am being pickety but newer modern compact varieties aren't necessarily more disease resistant or less flavoursome, and likewise the older varieties aren't necessarily more flavoursome, or less disease-resistant. And so much can depend on the crops and the varieties and your growing conditions.

Sorry - maybe I'm just awkward.

[alan refail]

I hate to add my awkwardness to Colin's, but hasn't KG magazine covered this a couple of years ago?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9000

[KG Steve]

Yes it does have similarities Alan I must admit, but I was thinking more of whether you think the trend to smaller varieties, which is led mostly by the industry who want compact plants for easier harvesting is good or bad, or does it matter?

Is it better to make use of the compact varieties to (in some cases) save work in supporting and trimming or to stick with what you know and like. Also some new varieties are very compact. I grew some tomatoes last year for example which never needed more than a 4in pot and were designed for windowsill growing, but the fruit was pretty poor and tasteless, so maybe the breeders have gone too far or sacrificed flavour in a quest for patio-sized plants? (I do agree Colin that by no means all modern varieties lack flavour or have better disease resistance). On the other hand, compact peas for me on my small plot are a boon and much easier to protect and support and the modern ones much less prone to mildew.

Also there are gardeners who think that biggest is best and strive the grow the biggest leeks, onions and pumpkins, but without always realising that the biggest doesn't necessarily taste the best. I often think that veg is at its best when harvested small.

[Nature's Babe]

I believe disease resistence comes more from soil quality than size, don't walk on your soil compacted soil deprives roots of oxygen, humus adds nutrients and aids water retention, beneficial fungi protect roots from harmful pathogens and disease. This year in my unheated greenhouse I planted a mix of old and new varieties of tomatoes in the border in humus rich soil, underplanting with a beneficial fungi mix and my tomatoes are lush green and look abundantly healthy despite the continual cloud, rain and humidity. It is useful though to pick a small short growing season variety for very early and late tomatoes, last year because of the mild winter I picked my last ripe greenhouse tomatoes in early January thanks to the mild winter. Even in a small garden I think the old tall traditional varieties of pea or runner bean, are delicious and compared to new varieties they crop abundantly if you keep picking regularly, against a fence they take up very little room, Be sure to choose a sunny spot if you wast sweet peas that tempt you to eat soon as picked, they need sun to produce that sweetness. Though if I was growing courgettes in a small garden I would choose a compact variety and feed the soil well first to boost production. I wouldn't take a cart horse to the races, or a racehorse to pull a log from woodland, so it is a fine tuning really, no easy answers - just weighing up; space, preferance, knowing qualities of plants chosen, working with the soil conditions and qualitoies of different areas of your garden. If space is really limited choose pots and patio varieties, some of which can be grown on a sunny windowsill, be sure to feed well, and use a quality compost. Also take care to see pots have adequate room for the roots to grow, protect with a ring of copper tape to prevent slug damage.

[Colin Miles]

Hi Captain Carrot. Appreciate what you are saying, but would suggest that the debate is too complex for a 'simple' questionnaire type of approach. For small gardens disease-resistance, and dare I say it weather-resistance, has to be important otherwise no crop is possible. Then size, which is where the compact varieties come in but, as you say, if the taste/flavour isn't any good then there is no point in growing it. I think you have to look at each individual variety on its own merits.

On allotments the same criteria applies where the trend is for half-size plots, but full-size ones allow more variation.

[PLUMPUDDING]

I can't see the point in the mini veg. as you can get small tender plants by closer spacing the normal varieties if you don't have much space, but the dwarf fruit trees are useful if you want to try a few different ones plums, apples, cherries etc. I'm trying a dwarf apricot fairly close to my conservatory in the border as I don't want it to cast too much shade.

I prefer the tall peas which are usually the older varieties as they crop over a longer period than the short ones and it would be very short sighted of the industry to lose many of the tried and tested excellent older varieties of vegetables just because they take up more space.

I certainly don't want the uniform hybrids they grow for their ease of picking - poor flavoured little things that are all ready at once.

[Nature's Babe]

If you are growing in a small place - in pots even - it is even more important to feed your soil as you are probably growing more intensively planting closely, then try to find a corner for a compost bin, or wormery, what you make can be used to top your pots and revitalise them without adding to carbon emissions. If expense is a concern then make a bin to fit your space from wooden pallets
If you don't have room for fruit trees then consider a step over apple or if you have a sunny wall - a grape vine. Blueberries can grow well in pots, remember they need an acid soil.

[Colin Miles]

NB wrote

I believe disease resistence comes more from soil quality than size, don't walk on your soil compacted soil deprives roots of oxygen, humus adds nutrients and aids water retention, beneficial fungi protect roots from harmful pathogens and disease.

Obviously all plants need as healthy a soil as possible, but to suggest that disease resistance stems mainly from soil quality is to confuse cause and effect. A healthy soil will do nothing to prevent blight on susceptible potatoes whereas blight resistance, whether conferred by conventional Sarpo-type methods or GM will. Similarly with other diseases and pests, as with carrot root fly resistance. Of course, in neither of these cases are we dealing with the compact issue, which is another reason why I am not exactly with the terms of the question!

[Nature's Babe]

A healthy soil with michorrhizal fungi does contribute to plant health Colin: mycorrhizae contribute to soil structure, enhance drought resistence, increase the area the plant can obtain nutrients from, Mycorrhizal fungi may also help regulate the uptake of soil toxins, allowing plants to better tolerate salty or problem soil conditions. and confer some protection against many harmful fungi

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121836.htm

http://eastofedenplants.co.uk/images/db ... 20Myco.pdf

http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory8.html

Despite the awful wet weather lack of sunshine and high humidity, my tomatoes which were planted in soil with the innocculum, are green and flourishing. If you google the subject you will find many more articles on the benefits of fungi. I am not advocating any particular product though these are commercially available it is quite simple, if the soils are degraded, consider with permission, adding a small amount of soil from a nearby healthy forest / uncultivated area to each planting hole to "inoculate" the soil with healthy microlife. The third link has useful info on how best to provide conditions encouraging that micro life to thrive.

[Colin Miles]

NB - you miss the points. Noone doubts the benefits of a healthy soil, but if a plant is susceptible to a disease or pest, it will still succumb or suffer. The compact v traditional debate is about the relative merits of these, with the supposition, which is debatable, as to the better disease resistance of modern compact varieties. Given a healthy soil, is it preferable to have these varieties?

[Nature's Babe]

Or perhaps you missed my point Colin, that both compact and other plants thrive better in soils that have the mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial micro organisms. When growing intensively feeding the soil or growing medium is crucial. Also plumpudding makes a very valid point that you can achieve smaller plants by closer spacing anyway! Johnboy taught me that when I grew absolutely enormous cabbages last year by intermixing with different species, he rightly said closer spacing would give me more compact plants. Plants grow into the space available to them, including those in pots which if restricted by pot size produce smaller plants. When growing intensively feeding the soil or growing medium is crucial. So plantineg ordinary carbbage closer spaced should produce smaller cabbage without having to pay extra for F1's
Therefore I contend that each plant, garden aspect and soil conditions are different, so each gardener will get the best from his plot by weighing up the pro's and cons of both compact or otherwise in his particular environment. The RHS researches plant health and they endorse the use of beneficial fungi.

[alan refail]

Just to remind posters: the topic for this thread was compact vs traditional varieties

This was not an invitation for lectures on soil health and beneficial fungi. I think I shall request the moderators to remove all this deliberate thread drift out of respect for Captain Carrot's original question.

[Nature's Babe]

With respect Alan, perhaps we should ask captain Carrot first if he feels it is relevant to the subject, rather than deciding for him! I feel it is relevant. I am prepared to learn from others, as I did when Johnboy mentioned close planting affecting the size of cabbage and I keep an open mind - unlike some who seem to want to squash any comment here ( and not just my views ) that does not cuncur with their own view.

[KG Steve]

Hi everyone. I think this is one of those questions that is open to different interpretations and with hindsight I have to say that I didn't frame the original question very well. There are probably some more clear cut topics which lend themselves better to the sort of discussion I was hoping to open up so I'll leave it for now (we have to go to press tomorrow anyway) and get back to you with another, more inspiring topic to discuss soon with a view to adding your valued comments to our feature as before.

With regard to the ongoing discussion I have been interested in all the views expressed and I'm honestly not just trying to be diplomatic. You've all made very valid points for which I thank you.

Maybe under the circumstances it would be better to call time on the discussion on this occasion, but If anyone wishes to continue the thread I hope they can do it with a sense of fun and remembering that we are all entitled to our views on an open and free forum for gardeners where we don't need to take anything too seriously -thank goodness!