What is the best compost to buy for 2012?

[Colin Miles]

John - I am sure that NH has worked well for you but my concerns - others must speak for themselves - is that these peat-free composts pose extra difficulties for the inexperienced. Growing your own does involve a certain amount of hard work and consistency of effort and, if we are to involve more people in doing this, we should not put unnecessary difficulties in their way. It's bad enough having to cope with the weather and all the bugs, birds and diseases - not to mention rabbits and deer (local difficulty at the NBGW). It's a bit like going cold-turkey - ok exaggeration - but be gentle and kind to beginners and later on they can perhaps manage the more difficult 'moral' aspects. More important, they can make up their own minds in an informed manner.

[alan refail]

Thank you for your contribution, John. It is always good to have visual evidence. However, I would suggest you would convince more amateur gardeners if you had shown side by side plants grown in NH and in a peat compost. That would have shown that NH performs either:
a) just as well as peat
b) worse than peat
c) better than peat

When I did just that last year I found NH was a failure. May have been "a little variability between a few bags here and there", but I for one am not going searching for good bags and losing crops. I had much better results with Vital Earth and proposed to use it again, except that it is now unobtainable in this area.

To quote Alan Knight (Defra's Sustainable Growing Media Task Force chairman) himself: "We use peat because it works and is good value. Let's be honest - if we found a better performing and better value alternative to peat, we all would use it."

I think the "doom mongers" (to use your apocalytic terminology) amongst us would all concur with that

[Ricard with an H]

Anyone suggesting they are no good for gardening either hasn't tried them, or is being deliberately misleading.

Or, as in my case, a novice thrown into the deep-end. Thanks for your view on this matter John, it does put a whole different slant on the idea of using peat-free but I can't get it out of my head that whoever it is that produces this stuff for Sinclare might not be as scientific as they should be about bagging it for use before it's suitable in some cases. I went over the adjacent field to a dump where the farmer has tipped all the cow-poo from years ago, over parts of the the 'poo-tip' grasses and various wildflower have instated themselves. I thought this was a good sign that the stuff was ready to use so I dug some out to use it and killed a few plants. Clearly parts of this poo-tip were stable for some plants, but some parts were not suitable.

And I didn't know there was a finer version, very-interesting.

[Colin Miles]

Tony's comment

I do share a bit of that concern. It is visually apparent that New horizons has shredded waste from fitted kitchens in it. I'm sure that treated timber must find its way into some the composts, because no matter what size notice there is on the wood waste skip at the tip saying "no treated timber" there's always some in there. Similarly wood with leaded paint. I wonder how well it is tested for heavy metals etc.

brings up a number of questions. I am not in favour of over-regualation, but some minimum standard regarding composition not to mention the matter of fast or slow acting? And can these be counted as Organic if they contain heavy metals? And how about some standard regarding water retention?

[Ricard with an H]

And how about some standard regarding water retention?

Sorry, I just edited my post but should have posted again. (About the poo-pile)

And Colin has just reminded me, as I re-potted into peat yesterday a whole row of small plants were dry over easily 50% of the NH material with the bottom 50% being sodden. Surely this isn't good and aren't the majority of kitchen gardeners novices ?

[Tony Hague]

I hope people don't read too much into my comments; although I don't use peat, I am very willing to believe it is easier to use, and more consistent. I meant just to point out that the peat free composts can be used with fair success, and give some pointers as to where different care might help.

Although I accept that peat may be easier to use and give better results, I'm not willing to use it because in general I feel that a recycled waste product should be preferred over anything mined or extracted, with the accompanying environmental and sustainability issues. And if ease were everything, I'd just but my veg from Tesco.

I am not in favour of over-regualation, but some minimum standard regarding composition not to mention the matter of fast or slow acting? And can these be counted as Organic if they contain heavy metals? And how about some standard regarding water retention?

I can see two problems. First, you need things that you can measure. Water retention might be easier, and you could set (if there aren't already) thresholds for certain heavy metals e.g. lead. But the raw materials are whatever gets lobbed in the wood and green waste skips, and it is hard to measure what is "too woody" ?
The second problem is one that the manufacturers struggle with, and that is the availability of consistent raw materials. Their compost is variable because the stuff they have to work with is variable. They have a job which is a bit like blending wine; they have to start with a mix of stuff that the various Chateaux didn't want to bottle and sell with their own name on it, and blend it into some sort of consistent product that they can sell. It takes some skill to get a good result !

[Colin Miles]

Tony - I accept that there are many difficulties with measuring these things and setting standards. Life isn't black and white and we may well be dealing with deciding which is the lesser of two evils. But without proper information and analysis and informed discussion decisions will always end up based on individual bias rather than 'rational' ones. Ok - we all have our biases which influence our 'rational' decisions anyway.

But with regard to municipal waste there has to be more work done. Given that contamination is always going to be the case, what level is acceptable? Should it be stored and/or treated differently?

And with regard to water retention having regard to what Richard has just posted and you said about measurement, surely that is an important parameter to establish?

And then, as Johnboy pointed out in previous discussion, there is the matter of nutrition or lack of such that plants appear to quickly run out of this in the peat-free due to the reliance on 'organic' NPP.

[vegpatchmum]

As an amateur grower, I'd like to put my pennies worth in.

Probably like the majority of Kitchen gardeners, the idea of using environmentally friendly products such as peat free compost, is appealing and one which I would trully like to be able to subscribe to wholeheartedly but my own experiences with YHS' peatfree compost had mixed results, the latter being a disasterous infestation of thousands of small black flies in each and every one of the 3 bags we bought. This is something that has NEVER happened all the time we have used Erin reduced peat either before or after.

As the flies didn't emerge for 24 hours after I started to use the compost, I was blissfully unaware and the end result was decimation of pretty much an entire repotting of the younger, more vulnerable seedlings and an impact on the older more established young plants, as they struggled to cope with the sheer numbers of flies. Thankfully this occurred 2/3rds of the way through the growing season and so the first sowings where, by and large already planted out or potted up into their final positions.

It was a shame, as the first lot we had bought had been lovely and the plants grew well which proves that when they get the process right it works as well as peat based products and this I think is the crux of the matter.

The technology is in its infancy and there is still an element of trial and error which the peat based products have already gone through way back when. As a small scale gardener, no matter how much I want to be fully organic and environmentally aware, I simply can not afford to risk the relatively small amount of crops I can grow. For now the best that I can do is to use reduced peat composts and hope, that very soon, the teething problems will have been ironed out and then we will willingly switch but until then, I'm sorry, it really is a case of 'not in my back yard (or potting shed if you'd like )'.

VPM
x

[Ricard with an H]

Very-interesting discussion that is keeping me from my chores in the house and outside, I'm retired, this is supposed to be relaxing. Growing food is very stressful at the moment, sort of a battle-ground against nature and the elements and in my case the fear of being middle-of-the-road to very-poor at this business.

One thing I would like to add to this discussion is some cynicism towards marketing procedures and marketing professionals who are probably relying on the early-adopters amongst you experienced growers and the remaining apathetic to stuff like a 'Which' report badge on the bag together with some interesting text to 'help' us use the product.

The fact that my garden centre has almost sold out of New Horizon and retains a couple of pallets of Clover peat compost should tell a story about us occasional-gardeners.

I think the marketing people have decided this product is Ok, not brilliant but Ok. The tree-huggers amongst us will buy it with blind-confidence and determination, the occasional gardeners won't know what went wrong and blame themselves or the weather and the remaining regular gardeners are the only gamble so let's bang it out into the market and see what happens.

I lost two packets of bean (Amongst other things) seeds to this product though the courgettes were Ok until the they went into ground. If it hadn't been for me searching the internet, reading this forum and then joining in the discussion I would be just as oblivious to the truth as as hundreds of other occasional gardeners.

Ha-ha, just remembered something else, I bought 20 comfrey cuttings, 10 went rotten and disappeared into the NH material and I blamed the cuttings. The dealer sent me another ten but I now think it was soggy bottom 50% that rotted the comfrey. Isn't this going to be a typical scenario with other occasional gardeners ? I feel used.

[vegpatchmum]

Don't be despondent Richard - growing is a relaxing hobby, except when you're worrying about:

Did I use too much water when I sowed those seeds (this is when the seedlings haven't appeared after only 24hrs although the packet said 14-21 days );

Did I not water enough when I sowed my seeds (ditto the first comment );

Have I put the young plants out/potted them on too soon (when a foot of growth has not occurred within the first 48hrs of planting out/potting on);

Have I left them in the greenhouse/polytunnel too long (when entering said greenhouse or polytunnel closely resembles the 'Hothouse' scenes from the recent remake of 'Day of the Triffids');

Are 50 tomato plants, 48 chilli plants, 20 cucumbers and 500 lettuces enough to feed a family of 4 for a week? (usually followed by a spate of sowing more seeds 'just in case ); and (in my case)

Will we get decent enough pumpkins in time for Halloween.

You're always worrying about something or other: too hot, too cold, too much sun, too much rain.

Overall though, the feeling you get when you sit down to a meal consisting of absolutely no (or the bare minimum of) shop bought vegetables, is second to none and it makes it all worth while.

Each year will be different and you will be doubly cautious now and NOT automatically blame yourself for a grand or small scale failure. The first year we grew we lost our entire cucumber crop to fungus. It was soul destroying but 100% our own fault as we had planted too many plants, too close together, in too small a space - very hard lesson learned and I have never done it again.

Your only error was believing the hype and wanting to do your bit. Don't beat yourself up about it sweetie, take on board all that has been said and soldier on - it will be worth it, I promise

VPM
x

P.S. One last thought, you may find this hard to believe but the first year of growing is, in my opinion, actually the most relaxed in many ways because you don't have the hinderance of previous years to compare plant growth too which is one more thing to worry about ...... I'm sure I had an enormous pumpkin on the vine by this time last year and why aren't the cobnuts flowering yet ......

[Ricard with an H]

Lovely and relaxing post mum, and thank-you for more encouragement. Today, they're on their own. (Plants)

I'm going surfing.

48 chilli plants ? You're a professional.

[Ricard with an H]

Ok, just one more before I get in the van.

For the last ten years I've been gardening wild flowers to re-instate them into natural surroundings. Pembrokeshire banks are full of stone, rubble with a bit of soil mixed in and it's usually not top soil.

Some species like to be thrown onto gritty/stony ground, stamped-in and generally treated rough. Self-seeding in some cases happens, in most cases it doesn't because of invasive grasses.

I have achieved a lot of success and right now most of our surrounding banks are in waves of colour from mostly four types of wildflower. The paddock is a carpet of creeping buttercup and the whole thing is very relaxing.

In a sense, I'm not a novice, I've gained a little experience with a few plants and what ground I have. Do you know what pushed me to growing some vegetables ? Early this year I served carrots in an evening meal to some pals. "Store-bought carrots are for for horses" was a critical comment after I voiced an opinion that carrots aren't what they used to be.

[ashb]

are we still posting about the subject title if so with me
being the novices novice and cheepskate i bought B@Qs
verve peat free compost even though there is abit of wood
in it it is very good stuff all my veg what ive planted as done
really well and i have bought enough to fill 10 different sized
planter bags it maybe cheap but it does what it says on the bag,
and i have just bought another 3 bags.
ashb.

[Johnboy]

It is all very well saying that you can have a sieve on hand and seprate out the larger particles of a peat-free compost but what do you do with the waste.
We have failed miserably to find an outlet selling New Horizon in this area so am unable to comment on it but my allotmenteers bought three bags of peat-free and when sieved out there really wasn't one bag of anything approaching seeding quality. They decided to mix what they managed to salvage with some of my multipurpose Vitax Q4 peat. The results were very good. They lit the bonfire with the rest!
If it is so vital that we are to be forced to use peat-free compost I feel that the manufacturers should be forced to produce at least something that is approaching peat which sadly appears to be a very long way off.
If they can produce a seeding and cutting medium, which I have no experience of, then it means that it is possible to produce a more consistent product and quite frankly until then I for one will go on using my supply of peat. I hasten to add that I have a great store of peat left over from my nusery days. (I bought a whole years supply for the nursery and had a heart attack before the season started and I closed the nursery so I was kind of stuck with it.)
What is needed is a British Standard for Peat-free composts and a Kite Mark on every bag of compost sold.
I believe that Dr Alan Knight will have realised this and will be working toward this aim.
When this happens I will happily use Peat-free compost but not before.
JB.

[Ricard with an H]

are we still posting about the subject title if so with me
being the novices novice and cheepskate i bought B@Qs
verve peat free compost even though there is abit of wood
in it it is very good stuff

Sorry, I did swerve off-course a little but what I was trying to say relates to the subject of planting material, at-least loosely.

Ash, it's good if the thread gets positive as well as negative responses but if you haven't grow stuff in peat alongside the peat-free you wouldn't know if it was Ok.

Talking with the owners of our garden centre again and I didn't know they actually grow a lot of their own plants so I asked what they use. A slight embarrassed pause opened into a full explanation of why they have to use a product that is for "Professional"
use.

Even in gardening we have the haves, and have-nots. Material is sold to the pond-life that is Ok but the real stuff is kept for those who want perfect results. For gods-sake we all want perfect results.

In between this flurry of new posting from me I've been reading a lot about what makes plants grow well, different plants have different needs after the seed and seedling stage but it seems it's reasonably easy to produce a material that is middle-of-the-road.

What is the best compost this year ? As a novice I'm now buying peat on the basis of my experience and the trials done by members of this forum. I will buy some New Horizon seed and cutting compost and do my own side-by-side trial with that material.