I can't make my mind up on Grafted Tomatoes.
Joe Maiden's article in this month's magazine suggested they started well but ran out of steam. That suits me, I grow a few in a heated greenhouse for an early crop until the cold greenhouse then outside takes over. However, there are other articles that suggest they do in fact keep going, which I think is Tigger's experience also:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -trilliums
http://www.meynell-langley-gardens.co.uk/tomatovar.htm
http://www.rijkzwaan.co.uk/wps/wcm/conn ... FydiwwOw==
(I'm having trouble with this link, click back to make it work)
Could be that slightly different cultivation technique is required, perhaps the early vigour means they deplete resources, or perhaps the Suttons plants are not on the best possible rootstock for longevity.
If I decide to give it a go the next decision is buy plants or produce my own. Buying is not cheap and most of the time I haven't come across the varieties on offer:
http://www.simplyseedsandplants.co.uk/p ... ollection/
http://www.organicplants.co.uk/acatalog ... ction.html
http://www.dobies.co.uk/Search.aspx?term=grafted
Sourcing the components looks difficult for diy approach.
The Rijkzwann website above lists 3 rootstock varieties (which interestingly can also be used for Aubergines) but doesn't give any idea how to purchase, probably commercial only. I have found a site that sells 2 seeds for 95p but other than that Moles seem to be the only suppliers. Similarly the grafting clips only seem to be available from Moles (tape is available but sounds fiddly and a roll is nearly as expensive as 50 clips). That leaves the prospect of a minimum order from Moles of 50 rootstock seeds and 50 clips for around £20, haven't checked the p&p.
http://www.molesseeds.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss0 ... ACTION.y=0
I've never used the Seed Swap facility but perhaps if several of us wanted to try we could share a grafting kit.
The other thought that I had was what production variety to use. This year we have grown an old variety called Bloody Butcher, it is early and tasty but the plants are real wimps, I wondered if grafting would give them vigour.
I have written a post full of links, that I hate when other people do it, so if moderators want to remove it feel free.
Grafted tomatoes
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter
Hi Geoff,
If Joe Maiden's tomatoes ran out of steam it rather looks that Joe Maiden was at fault not the plants. Grafted plants in protected greenhouses grow to 60ft plus and are fed by a computer reading taken about every five minutes not what we are used to or want. Joe has not got that facility but he is well aware how they are grown commercially and should realise that the feeding regime is quite strict as is the watering. The only way the plant would run out of steam is because they have insufficient nutrition.
I really do not see the need for the amateur gardener to get into grafted plants.
JB.
If Joe Maiden's tomatoes ran out of steam it rather looks that Joe Maiden was at fault not the plants. Grafted plants in protected greenhouses grow to 60ft plus and are fed by a computer reading taken about every five minutes not what we are used to or want. Joe has not got that facility but he is well aware how they are grown commercially and should realise that the feeding regime is quite strict as is the watering. The only way the plant would run out of steam is because they have insufficient nutrition.
I really do not see the need for the amateur gardener to get into grafted plants.
JB.
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FelixLeiter
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Everyone's gone grafting mad. I haven't read Joe Maiden's article (I don't read the magazine(!)) but I'd like to know if he grew ungrafted plants alongside them to compare if they ran out of steam, also. I do suspect that Joe skimped on the Tomorite at some point. It does point out, though, that growing grafted plants in itself does not give us ponies and rainbows, we must still put in the graft (!) ourselves. But I'm with JB: I don't see the need for amateurs to be growing grafted plants. Most commercial growers gave up on grafting long ago, at first favouring growbags and now Rockwool to avoid soil-borne diseases and to allow fine-tuned feeding.
There are many commercial practices which have been adopted by amateur growers over the years, with varying success. I have never fathomed the popularity of growbags, which are the worst kind of pain to attempt to water without a drip system, which I shun in favour of nice big pots. But that's just me. We'll be seeing a revival of whale-hide pots before you know it.
There are many commercial practices which have been adopted by amateur growers over the years, with varying success. I have never fathomed the popularity of growbags, which are the worst kind of pain to attempt to water without a drip system, which I shun in favour of nice big pots. But that's just me. We'll be seeing a revival of whale-hide pots before you know it.
Allotment, but little achieved.
Hi Felix,
Having been a propagator and grafter for over thirty years where there was a need for grafting with many trees and shrubs but when I retired and closed my nursery I vowed to keep things as simple as possible. Grafted this and that seems to be the horticulturalists latest attempt to extract as much money as possible and especially from the gullible newcomers to gardening.
Because it may be possible to graft this and that in the vegetable world to me doesn't mean that it is any better than a plant grown on it's own roots. I have been growing Tomatoes for myself since 1943 and have never seen the need to grow them on anything other than their own roots so I am certainly not going to start now.
My Tomatoes are grown in the greenhouse border and in the tunnels in my own made grow bags that bear no resemblance to the commercial ones available. My bags are filled with my own Comfrey based compost and the results are very good. I also grow some plants out of doors and these are for green/red tomato chutney. I believe outdoor grown plants produce the right tomato for the job intended. This of course a personal preference.
As it is I give grafted Tomatoes a big thumbs down. Think of what you could have achieved if you were not faffing about with needless grafting!
JB.
Having been a propagator and grafter for over thirty years where there was a need for grafting with many trees and shrubs but when I retired and closed my nursery I vowed to keep things as simple as possible. Grafted this and that seems to be the horticulturalists latest attempt to extract as much money as possible and especially from the gullible newcomers to gardening.
Because it may be possible to graft this and that in the vegetable world to me doesn't mean that it is any better than a plant grown on it's own roots. I have been growing Tomatoes for myself since 1943 and have never seen the need to grow them on anything other than their own roots so I am certainly not going to start now.
My Tomatoes are grown in the greenhouse border and in the tunnels in my own made grow bags that bear no resemblance to the commercial ones available. My bags are filled with my own Comfrey based compost and the results are very good. I also grow some plants out of doors and these are for green/red tomato chutney. I believe outdoor grown plants produce the right tomato for the job intended. This of course a personal preference.
As it is I give grafted Tomatoes a big thumbs down. Think of what you could have achieved if you were not faffing about with needless grafting!
JB.
Hi Tigger,
Because you are going to grow the main bulk of you tomato production on grafted stock produced by yourself, which I in my humble opinion, I do not see as a really worthwhile operation. You are a very experienced gardener and know what you are doing and this has got to be an experiment. I look forward to the outcome which will be of great interest to me.
What I am primarily concerned about is that those who are new to gardening will be buying plants at highly inflated prices when the same results can be achieved without resorting to grafted plants.
The main disease in tomatoes that will affect the normal grower is blight and grafted plants are susceptible to blight exactly the same way as ungrafted plants.
This is why I say that for all the palaver of grafting very little is gained by the average home grower.
As to falling out with me well you couldn't if you tried because I have far too much respect for you over the years. (and affection!)
I meant to write to you last weekend but got diverted (Rugby being the main diversion) regarding a nice lunch somewhere. Name the day and the place and I will be there and on me this time.
Sincerely,
JB.
Because you are going to grow the main bulk of you tomato production on grafted stock produced by yourself, which I in my humble opinion, I do not see as a really worthwhile operation. You are a very experienced gardener and know what you are doing and this has got to be an experiment. I look forward to the outcome which will be of great interest to me.
What I am primarily concerned about is that those who are new to gardening will be buying plants at highly inflated prices when the same results can be achieved without resorting to grafted plants.
The main disease in tomatoes that will affect the normal grower is blight and grafted plants are susceptible to blight exactly the same way as ungrafted plants.
This is why I say that for all the palaver of grafting very little is gained by the average home grower.
As to falling out with me well you couldn't if you tried because I have far too much respect for you over the years. (and affection!)
I meant to write to you last weekend but got diverted (Rugby being the main diversion) regarding a nice lunch somewhere. Name the day and the place and I will be there and on me this time.
Sincerely,
JB.
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Geoff
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I'm still interested in the comments about vigour and earliness. I am wondering if the method can impart more vigour to a weak grower like Bloody Butcher that is nothing to do with disease just a characteristic of the variety. Similarly would it improve the chances of getting good early beefsteaks like Caspian Pink that tend to be late cropping (or barely at all this season!).
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Geoff
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I sowed some Aegis rootstock on Monday in 3½" pots and am going to add the varieties to the same pots on Friday as per Moles instructions. These are for the heated greenhouse, main experiment will be Bloody Butcher but there will also be some ordinary ones. Later I shall do some for the cold greenhouse where the main trial will be Caspian Pink. I'm also trying an Aubergine.
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Geoff
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I'm bravely posting on the day I have done my first grafting - I should probably have kept quiet unless it worked!
Three things to mention :
1. Timing - as predicted above the plants are not of equal size because the sowing times weren't correct. I've sown some more for the cold greenhouse and I have sown rootstock and variety on the same day for this batch.
2. How to do it - I've read quite a few websites and the advice varies. The first thing I am not clear about is how much rootstock top to cut away initially. The cultural notes from Moles say "Remove the top leaves of the rootstock". My favourite (American) video clip shows the rootstock immediately decapitated. It is a bit long but here is the link for anybody who is interested http://www.johnnyseeds.com/t-video_tomato_grafting.aspx I have cut different amounts off to see what happens, the photo below is the biggest amount I have left, the idea is to cut it off completely when it looks like I have a graft.
The second problem is what to do with the variety root system. Moles advice is "Leave the original tomato root and the grafted rootstock in the compost and plant out as normal". The American advice is to wean the plant off its own rootstock by cutting it in two stages.
3. What to graft. I have mentioned that I planned to see if I could increase the vigour of a heritage variety that we like the fruit of but I hadn't found any discussion of this idea. When I let Google give me US pages not only did I get the link above about growing a low vigour variety there were other sites specifically mentioning giving heritage varieties new vigour, so I might be on the right lines.
Below are three photos of one pair showing the difference in development and how I grafted (the bad leaf is where it touched a growing light, the plants are in my lighted propagator).
How are you getting on Tigger?
Three things to mention :
1. Timing - as predicted above the plants are not of equal size because the sowing times weren't correct. I've sown some more for the cold greenhouse and I have sown rootstock and variety on the same day for this batch.
2. How to do it - I've read quite a few websites and the advice varies. The first thing I am not clear about is how much rootstock top to cut away initially. The cultural notes from Moles say "Remove the top leaves of the rootstock". My favourite (American) video clip shows the rootstock immediately decapitated. It is a bit long but here is the link for anybody who is interested http://www.johnnyseeds.com/t-video_tomato_grafting.aspx I have cut different amounts off to see what happens, the photo below is the biggest amount I have left, the idea is to cut it off completely when it looks like I have a graft.
The second problem is what to do with the variety root system. Moles advice is "Leave the original tomato root and the grafted rootstock in the compost and plant out as normal". The American advice is to wean the plant off its own rootstock by cutting it in two stages.
3. What to graft. I have mentioned that I planned to see if I could increase the vigour of a heritage variety that we like the fruit of but I hadn't found any discussion of this idea. When I let Google give me US pages not only did I get the link above about growing a low vigour variety there were other sites specifically mentioning giving heritage varieties new vigour, so I might be on the right lines.
Below are three photos of one pair showing the difference in development and how I grafted (the bad leaf is where it touched a growing light, the plants are in my lighted propagator).
How are you getting on Tigger?
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- IMG_2503_R.jpg (137.41 KiB) Viewed 8709 times
- IMG_2506_R.jpg (145.28 KiB) Viewed 8709 times
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oldherbaceous
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Afternoon Geoff, i appreciated your update, and hope you get the rewards.
Kind Regards, Old Herbaceous.
There's no fool like an old fool.
There's no fool like an old fool.
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FelixLeiter
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Thank you for posting those photos. Very informative. I've not seen this technique used before. I've done approach grafting of tomatoes in the past, and I guess this technique is a variation of that. Previously, I've raised the stock and scion in separate pots, grown them on a little further than the plants in the photos, and united them using a tongue by cutting half way through both stems at a diagonal, bound them together with raffia. I did not defoliate the plants. I'm not sure what can be gained by this. Because the roots of both stock and scion are retained until the graft has taken, I don't see that the rate of transpiration needs to be reduced, which is presumably why most of the foliage is removed. Lacking leaves, I would have thought that they would have some making up to do later. Still and all, there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. I am intrigued to see the outcome.
Allotment, but little achieved.
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PLUMPUDDING
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I'm interested in the results of these experiments, but really can't see the point in all this faffing about when I've got lots of vigorous plants from about 40 different varieties of my own saved seeds. I grow non f1s so I can choose what colour, flavour and size I want to grow and save fresh seeds from the best each year. The seeds stay viable for years and years, so I grow a few different ones each season plus my favourites.
I'm sure the grafted ones are useful if you don't have much space if they are as productive as they are reputed to be, and it is enjoyable to have a tinker at grafting etc just out of interest if you have the time.
I'm sure the grafted ones are useful if you don't have much space if they are as productive as they are reputed to be, and it is enjoyable to have a tinker at grafting etc just out of interest if you have the time.