Container-grown vegetables; organic or not?

[alan refail]

In the latest edition of The Organic Way there are a couple of opposed responses to the question whether organic guidelines can apply to container-grown plants.

The "yes" response suggests that if the growing medium is organic then what is grown is organic.

The "no" response insists that organic plants can only be grown in the earth as only then will their "roots have had access to the mysteries of the earth. Plants can find these mysteries without scientific understanding."

Any views on the matter?

[peter]

Not printable.

[glallotments]

I long ago stopped trying to work out what was organic and what wasn't.
Web definitions I found were.
Organic Gardening:

The method of gardening utilizing only materials derived from living things. (i.e. composts and manures)
Plants grown without the use of chemical fertilizer or pesticides. Any fertilizers used consist of animal or vegetable matter.
A method of gardening that does not utilize chemical pesticides or chemical fertilizers.
A form of gardening where only naturally occurring materials are used. Example: Manure

Organic:

Being composed of, or containing matter related to living organisms.

So container grown in organic compost should be classed as organic - shouldn't it?

Then I read - quote from Garden Organic website
Manures and waste plants materials
Accepted:
Straw, hay and farmyard and horse manures from non-Organic sources - after being aerobically composted for three months or stockpiled for six months (The extra time is to allow some breakdown of any chemical residues that might be present.)
Guess what that opens the door for?

No doubt someone out there will have an explanation.

[Nature's Babe]

My criteria would be different.

1 is it ecologically harmful
1 is it in harmony or disruptive of natural processes

this can raise many questions eg peat is natural but when extensively used ecologically harmful to habitat etc.

In containers I use compost I have produced myself, so I know exactly what goes into it, and observe even in tiny containers evidence of natural microbial/fungal activity, eg fungi popping up with seedlings, so it's as near to natural as I can get, but is it organic? The proof of the pudding is in the eating so if it yields good results, I'm happy.

Found this guidance on organic potting mixes -

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/potmix.html .

and this raised some interesting points

http://www.bernwodeplants.co.uk/organic.htm

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
This is the result of a Soil Association Conference a few weeks ago when I suspect that it was to do with growing in greenhouses and poly tunnels and it was thought that to be organic it must be grown in the soil.
A certain person actually said that but whether or not it was adopted by the conference I am afraid do not know.
To my way of thinking if all the criteria meets organic standards and all the difference is a pot or growbag, especially full of home made compost then it has got to be organic.
Sadly knowing where the SA stand on common sense your guess is as good as mine.
JB.

[alan refail]

Hi JB

What particularly struck me was the assertion: "roots have had access to the mysteries of the earth. Plants can find these mysteries without scientific understanding."

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
What I should have said before was that the SA conference was discussing alterations to their accreditation system.
It was also said at that conference that Organic greenhouses and tunnels should not be heated using fossil fuels. Among the suggestions was heating by burning wood chips. A huge capital outlay!
I wonder how many small organic growers will lose their accreditation because the SA seem of late only to be interested in large growers.
I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would make of the Soil Association?
Thankfully we will never know.
JB.

[Colin Miles]

Is rain water organic? If the atmosphere is polluted and the rain water dissolves 'noxious' chemicals on the way down... Perhaps we should use water from underground aquifers which is centuries old... But what about volcanoes when they spew out, is their content organic?

[peter]

My criteria would be different.

1 is it ecologically harmful
1 is it in harmony or disruptive of natural processes

Stop gardening right now.

Gardening is disruptive of the natural progression of land to, in the UK, mostly temperate forest.
You, the gardener, are deliberately removing naturally seeded plants and and replacing them with artificially created mutant plants, aka vegetables.

I admire the spirit of what you wish to achieve but deplore the words used to articulate it. In truth your first criteria covers all.

Also in all truth the chance of any cultivatable land, or any landscape, in the uk, not being manmade is approximately zero, so our land is not truely natural. Unless you accept mans influence as being natural, in which case anything goes, so keep gardening.

The real danger here is that zealous and extreme definitions will draw the SA organisation into disrepute and expose it to ridicule by logical and methodical people.

Gardening can be a; profession, vocation, art, craft or science, what it must not become is a mystical semi religious belief, that way we move from improving our soil with burnt mice to burnt non-believers.

People who believe in a "process" will not get the scientific or logical to share that belief by restating the belief, what is needed is proof by experiment comparing the process believed in against other methods.

[Geoff]

Who cares?

[Nature's Babe]

From the remarks it is obvious that none of you have read any of links that I provided on my answer to johnboys question, what I do is bend natural processes as much as possible to get my garden as near to the way nature works as I can, it works, I am 70 this year and still gardening, the only problem I had in my garden this year was a ghost moth caterpillar killing off the root of a lettuce the bed was near a lawn which the moth frequent.
no blight, no whitefly, no blackfly problems no mould or virus problems, I probably do far less weeding than you, less watering, only pots, no digging, because I let mycelium thrive in my soil, they have anti viral and anti bacterial properties attach to plant roots, sharing their extensive root system which helps plants cope with drought and disease
I used to garden as you all do, in sixty years gardening, I have kept an open mind and learned fom others, I have tried to share what I have learned , but its no skin off my nose if you think you know better. i give up on you all,

[Colin Miles]

I have had no blackfly, no whitefly, no blight, no mould or virus this year, but I put that down to the climatic conditions not anything 'organic'. The links that you supply are interesting but are not necessarily proof of anything other than the total confusion and elasticity that exists within the attempts to define organic. The problem nowadays is that everyone has access to the web where anyone can put anything. In many areas it has become a gigantic Chinese whisper machine. One man's opinion and 'research' is as good as anothers and real hard research can be easily buried. He who shouts loudest is not necessarily the most truthful.

[glallotments]

I used to garden as you all do, in sixty years gardening, I have kept an open mind and learned fom others, I have tried to share what I have learned , but its no skin off my nose if you think you know better. i give up on you all,

Sorry have I missed something here? I wasn't aware of saying how I garden and certainly have never said I know better than anyone! I've certainly not a closed mind and am willing to learn from anyone.

[Mike Vogel]

Well, NB, I have accessed the websites you cited, but I'm afraid I just don't have the time to read them in detail. I didn't see at a glance what they had to do with the issue anyhow. I also make my own compost, and congratulations on getting on as well as you do. But I also buy in a lot, certified as organic, but who knows what has actually gone into the stuff?

The sort of cretinous rubbish written by the opponent of calling container grown veg "organic" is just what puts people off taking organic farming or gardening seriously. I can't blame Geoff for asking his question. It's like saying you can only call a horse a horse if it's brown.

But the thinking behind it is interesting in its own way, I suppose. However, I have gone off the Soil Association since it banned Derris. If it's OK by Laurence Hills then it should be OK by everyone else, unless there has been significant discovery in the meantime. And even Joy Larkcom concedes that it may be necessary to use weedkiller on the bindweed before starting up an organic plot.

My sympathies go to commercial organic growers who are buzzed around every which way - hardly surprising if they give it up.

[Nature's Babe]

Gallotments sorry, but i have received a lot of flak from a few here, you were not one of them, and I guess i got a bit exasperated, with folk who condemn an idea without, trying it, or even bothering to see and read links I posted, I was wrong to make it sound general, i am sorry if it upset you
and would like to offer you a full apology.