I understand that if you save seed from a F1 plant it probably won't come true.
Now I may be being thick but.....
Will someone please explain how do the seed companies get F1 seed and is it possible for us amateurs to do the same?
Regards, Gerry.
How do they get F1 seed?
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Hi Paul,
I find the T&M explanation somewhat long winded and not terribly informative.
I am trying to write something that may well be more understandable to people new to gardening.
They mention F2 hybrids which you can read up on but is of very little value to the vegetable gardener.
JB.
I find the T&M explanation somewhat long winded and not terribly informative.
I am trying to write something that may well be more understandable to people new to gardening.
They mention F2 hybrids which you can read up on but is of very little value to the vegetable gardener.
JB.
How about this one John from wikipedia
F1 hybrid is a term used in genetics and selective breeding. F1 stands for Filial 1, the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types. The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform variety with specific and/or desirable characteristics from either or both parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal genetics those parents usually are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey.
Crossing specific parent plants produces a hybrid seed (plant) by means of controlled pollination. To produce consistent F1 hybrids, the original cross must be repeated each season. As in the original cross, in plants this is usually done through controlled hand-pollination, and explains why F1 seeds can often be expensive. F1 hybrids can also occur naturally, a prime example being peppermint, which is not a species evolved by cladogenesis or gradual change from a single ancestor, but a sterile stereotyped hybrid of watermint and spearmint. Unable to produce seeds, it propagates through the vining spread of its own root system.
In agronomy, the term “F1 hybrid” is usually reserved for agricultural cultivars derived from two different parent cultivars, each of which are inbred for a number of generations to the extent that they are almost homozygous. The divergence between the parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour"), whilst the homozygosity of the parent lines ensures a phenotypically uniform F1 generation. Each year, for example, specific tomato "hybrids" are specifically recreated by crossing the two parent heirloom cultivars over again.
Gregor Mendel's groundbreaking work in the 19th century focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and all phenotypically resembled the dominant parent plant. Mendel’s discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generation lay the foundation for modern genetics. Today, certain domestic hybrid breeds, such as the Savannah cat, are classified by their filial generation number. (An F2 hybrid is a cross between two F1 hybrids. This second-generation cross does not produce consistent or vigorous plants. )
F1 hybrid is a term used in genetics and selective breeding. F1 stands for Filial 1, the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types. The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform variety with specific and/or desirable characteristics from either or both parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal genetics those parents usually are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey.
Crossing specific parent plants produces a hybrid seed (plant) by means of controlled pollination. To produce consistent F1 hybrids, the original cross must be repeated each season. As in the original cross, in plants this is usually done through controlled hand-pollination, and explains why F1 seeds can often be expensive. F1 hybrids can also occur naturally, a prime example being peppermint, which is not a species evolved by cladogenesis or gradual change from a single ancestor, but a sterile stereotyped hybrid of watermint and spearmint. Unable to produce seeds, it propagates through the vining spread of its own root system.
In agronomy, the term “F1 hybrid” is usually reserved for agricultural cultivars derived from two different parent cultivars, each of which are inbred for a number of generations to the extent that they are almost homozygous. The divergence between the parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour"), whilst the homozygosity of the parent lines ensures a phenotypically uniform F1 generation. Each year, for example, specific tomato "hybrids" are specifically recreated by crossing the two parent heirloom cultivars over again.
Gregor Mendel's groundbreaking work in the 19th century focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and all phenotypically resembled the dominant parent plant. Mendel’s discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generation lay the foundation for modern genetics. Today, certain domestic hybrid breeds, such as the Savannah cat, are classified by their filial generation number. (An F2 hybrid is a cross between two F1 hybrids. This second-generation cross does not produce consistent or vigorous plants. )
to recreate a specific f1 hybrid you would need to know what the parent breeds were and be able to get seed or plants to grow on and cross fertilise to get the hybid seed for the next year....
if you want to grow f1 varieties , the only practical way is to buy the commercially produced f1 seed.
if you want to save your own seed for next year grow non f1 varieties which beeed true.(ie you get the same thing year after year)
if you want to grow f1 varieties , the only practical way is to buy the commercially produced f1 seed.
if you want to save your own seed for next year grow non f1 varieties which beeed true.(ie you get the same thing year after year)
Thanks Paul, Johnboy and Richard.
I think I have gleaned the answer to what I was asking from your replies.
What I was wondering (and I'm not sure that I'm going to manage to explain it any clearer this time) was, do the two parents have to be cross pollinated every year, or if the seeds were saved from a F1, the plants grown on and then cross pollinated with a plant grown from the original F1 seed and if this practise was repeated over a couple of years would you end up with a plant who's seed would come true.
I was thinking in particular of tomato plants and it seems the parents are cross pollinated every year.
Regards, Gerry.
I think I have gleaned the answer to what I was asking from your replies.
What I was wondering (and I'm not sure that I'm going to manage to explain it any clearer this time) was, do the two parents have to be cross pollinated every year, or if the seeds were saved from a F1, the plants grown on and then cross pollinated with a plant grown from the original F1 seed and if this practise was repeated over a couple of years would you end up with a plant who's seed would come true.
I was thinking in particular of tomato plants and it seems the parents are cross pollinated every year.
Regards, Gerry.
Hi Paul,
Certainly the Wikipedia version make better reading to me but it is Gerry that we are trying to help.
Gerry,
Yes the two known parents would have to be crossed every time you needed seed.
You see that you can get two entirely different F1 crosses using the same two plants. Plant A Female x plant B male the progeny would be an F1 then take the same two plants. Plant A male x Plant B female = F1 progeny.
The two F1 progeny's would be different simply by switching the way the sexes are used although the parents used are the same.
Genetics is an exceedingly difficult subject to understand and even more so to try and explain.
There are now varieties of Supermarket Tomatoes for which there are no available seeds for sale. These are some of the 'on the vine varieties' and I suspect that these may be done by cuttings. Keeping the stock constantly turning over or the producers of the F1 seed have not released it for sale and the hybridizers produce all the plant themselves.
A very shrewd commercial move, if that is the case.
However this is drifting from the subject in hand and is not helping Gerry.
JB.
Certainly the Wikipedia version make better reading to me but it is Gerry that we are trying to help.
Gerry,
Yes the two known parents would have to be crossed every time you needed seed.
You see that you can get two entirely different F1 crosses using the same two plants. Plant A Female x plant B male the progeny would be an F1 then take the same two plants. Plant A male x Plant B female = F1 progeny.
The two F1 progeny's would be different simply by switching the way the sexes are used although the parents used are the same.
Genetics is an exceedingly difficult subject to understand and even more so to try and explain.
There are now varieties of Supermarket Tomatoes for which there are no available seeds for sale. These are some of the 'on the vine varieties' and I suspect that these may be done by cuttings. Keeping the stock constantly turning over or the producers of the F1 seed have not released it for sale and the hybridizers produce all the plant themselves.
A very shrewd commercial move, if that is the case.
However this is drifting from the subject in hand and is not helping Gerry.
JB.
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Interesting that the explanations so far stress the extra cost of producing F1 seed. I guess T&M would. Another point of view is that it is actually a short cut - it avoids the years of growing on and reselecting a new cross to produce a stable open pollinated variety.
I would have thought that gardeners would have no wish to reproduce the properties of most supermarket tomatoes in their own greenhouse
But realistically, if a commercial grower has developed a new variety, or paid for the breeding of one, I'm not surprised that they would want to keep the commercial advantage to themselves.
Johnboy wrote:There are now varieties of Supermarket Tomatoes for which there are no available seeds for sale.
I would have thought that gardeners would have no wish to reproduce the properties of most supermarket tomatoes in their own greenhouse
But realistically, if a commercial grower has developed a new variety, or paid for the breeding of one, I'm not surprised that they would want to keep the commercial advantage to themselves.the only alternative to buying f1 seeds would be to take cuttings to produce next years plants, then youre probably going to need heat to keep them alive during the winter.
Gerry, trying to cross f1 plants with anything is going to produce all sorts of wierd results, try it if you must but i'll be very surprised if you get anything near the result you were aiming for
Gerry, trying to cross f1 plants with anything is going to produce all sorts of wierd results, try it if you must but i'll be very surprised if you get anything near the result you were aiming for
Thanks everyone. I've got the message.
Johnboy, that was a very interesting point you raised about male "A" X Female "B" producing a different offspring than Female "A" X Male "B". It's all more complicated than I imagined.
Thanks a lot.
Regards, Gerry
Johnboy, that was a very interesting point you raised about male "A" X Female "B" producing a different offspring than Female "A" X Male "B". It's all more complicated than I imagined.
Thanks a lot.
Regards, Gerry