Kitchen Garden Forum

We have a site lawnmower and a petrol strimmer, the old chairman would not let the strimmer out because he said he was worried about 'elf & safety'. I wonder if others have got this covered in any way.

My plan with the strimmer would be to give perspective borrowers a small tutorial on how to use it, offer them a pair of plastic specs, and gloves, advise them re their footwear and to wear trousers not shorts, get them to sign a disclaimer, and off they go.

What do others do ? if anything ........ would this scheme stand up legally?

Compo

Erm no.

Unless you are competent to train the person in the machines operation, have all sorts of safety provisions in place etc for the storage and handling of petrol and a thousand other things you awill be holding yourself or your society wide open to litigation should anything untoward happen.

We have several items of kit as a society, none of which is loaned or hired out because of the above.

Another overlooked issue is your liability insurance for plotholders and indeed officers of your society. If you did hire kit out, something dreadfull happened and your insurance did not cover you, rest assured just the barristers fees would relieve you of your home, and believe me, it would.

Its a route best to keep clear of Compo UNLESS you have everything in place, signed and ticked off from a first aid kit to insurance, from risk assesments to method statements.

I am confused piglet, if you have several items of kit and none are loaned out why have you got them?

I am aware of the risks, I wont be losing any money or my home as I won't be taking any risks, I was simply asking what others did....but thanks for the lecture.......

Compo

Hi Compo,
Far from being a lecture I thought Piglets posting was a timely piece of advice. As I do not have anything to do with allotments I have not entered into the debate and have only got this to say.
Are you sure that you have understood the implications behind Piglets posting?
There are reams and reams to read about the subject and even when you think that you have got everything sorted I very much doubt that you have.
Be very very careful.
Sincerely,
JB.
PS Remember 'elf'& Safety simply love to prosecute the defenceless!!

When our site bought a new mower, every member paid a £1 towards its cost, we where given to understand that this made all members part owner. Shallotman

Compo,

twas not a lecture at all, just your narrow mindedness towards me I think. You asked if it would stand up legally and I responded to your question. Perhaps you need to read your own post again!!!!!

Compo wrote:would this scheme stand up legally?

Compo

To answer one of your questions, the items of kit held by the society are for our use in maintaining communal footpaths, work parties etc and are happily covered under our site insurance for use by committee members who are trained, competent and with the correct method statement and risk assesment and PPE. And the reason we do that is because we have a duty of care towards all plotholders and visitors.

To respond to your suggestion that by loaning out you would not take any risks, well, our insurance company wanted a small fortune to cover it, and then only if we could prove experience, servicing schedules, teaching ability, petrol storage, COSH, HSE PPE etc etc.

Go down the route if you wish, however I will just give you one word of advice.

"Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law".

I understand that caravans are quite comfortable these days.

Johnboy, thanks for your timely insight and advice.

Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 is the act under which all the others come under...it is backed up by Criminal Law and unlike the normal run of things you are presumed guilty and have to prove your innocence.

Ignorance is NOT acceptable an excuse

I hope to be travelling down the site committee route shortly and welcome the prompt reminders of responsibility

Get a bit controversial on here, dare to step away from the norm, are you all lawyers? JB, Piglet. I can feel the wind in my face from the force of your rantings in Somerset! You have offered useful advice which is more in line with what you are aware that the law is, I am not talking about opening a hire shop, every member of the association owns this kit as their rent has gone towards it, now if I jointly own a strimmer with my wife, am I liable if she cuts her toe? I am looking for a solution which I am sure I will find, and one that does not neglect personal safety nor place any officer of the association in a legally liable position. We have had no insurance, no health and safety guidelines and no accidents on our small field for as long as I can remember, and I don't intend to be liable for one now. Please do not assume that I or anyone else will go ahead with anything that is dodgy or illegal when you know nothing of how we work. I am certainly not narrow minded.

I have a job which requires me to take legal decisions on a daily basis.

Thanks for your advice which I will take in the round along with other advice that I have received

Compo

I'm not a legal eagle so probably I should keep out of this and its been 20 years since I was on an allotment commitee and responsible for the fertilizer and sundries order.But( with a capital B.)The question was about communal equipment which I think from the following posts(from compo and it looks like shallotman's people have a similar situation) means communally owned.
Is anyone up to speed on the legal situation with communally or joint owned equipment?..S.T.

I only know that we have to have third party insurance for the guy that we pay to use our mower to cut our grass, should he have an accident. We also provide safety clothes/goggles/gloves for him to use our strimmer, which he refusues to wear, but we get him to sign a disclaimer each time he refuses to do so.

Dearest Compo,

neither JB nor myself are ranting. I offered opinon to your question, how you proceed with it is up to you but the uncivil tone of your reply says it all.

Actually, whilst not being a lawyer myself, I took some fab advice from a couple of barristers (married together and friends of ours)re our site so am not plucking facts out of the sky and the legal ramifications are scarey. But if you deal with legal issues all day why ask on here???? Also you would know that as you are not employing your wife and in your own home, you would not be liable if she cut her toe, however she is still responsible for her own H&S.

Finally you say that you would not put any site official in a legally vunerable position, yet you have no site insurance. In my humble opinion, as Chaiman of your site that makes you a bit incompetent as you have put every committee members backside on the line should an accident happen.

The days of "well we have never had an accident before so have not bothered with insurance" are I am sad to say, long gone.

well "I'm not ranting" but I'll call you an"incompetent muppet" anyway. Why dont you have your argument in private if you feel that strongly? Strawberry Tart.

Compo,
It is becoming patently obvious that you are not open to any sensible suggestions which poses the question why you made the posting in the first place?
As an ex-employer of horticultural staff I do know that the relevant legislation on this matter is a total minefield. I am more than perturbed that you have taken Piglets and my own comments as a lecture which I feel is rather unjustified.
I only entered into the thread in concern for you and no other reason. Just remember that the law is the law and applies to us all and allotmenteers are no exception. I have nothing more to say on the matter as I feel that it would be a total waste of effort on my behalf.
JB.

Enough said, but having read back, the only advice I have beeng given is by those that see the worst case scenario, I am aware of the issues regarding litigation as I said, I work in a legally accountable job, and have been an employer / manager myself responsible for COSH and the other rules. But people really do need to read back at the way they post things on here 'Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law' I know this!!!! that's why I am posting and asking for advice, but the advice I will take is holistic, having considered all other aspects in the context of the situation. I am not surprised that this has happened in KG it is a fairly regular occurrence given the situation.

OK, time out everyone.

As far as I can see the question was asked and the question has been answered so I'm locking this thread before any more arguments break out.