Kitchen Garden Forum

Hey again,

I posted the other day asking advice about filling my raised bed. I've sorted that now thankfully (well need to get more bags to finish job) but anyways...

I nipped to a local garden centre today and of the things I bought was a bag of set Shallots Red Sun. the cost was just 50p and must be like 30 small shallots in there.

In my rearmost section of bed, which is 150cm wide by 66cm deep, I used up half, ie 75cm xx 66 cm, in order to put the shallots.

In the Grow Your Own Veg book by Carol Cline (v good book btw) it said to space them 6inchs apart, and 10inchs between rows which I did.

Needless to say with that sort of spacing, half if not less of the full bag got used. How long will these remaining bagged bulbs survive for? should I just eat them instead before they waste or could they even last another year?

Somehow, copying some plans from the book I had it in my head to use that area to grow shallots AND garlic. needless to say lately I've been getting way over eager and buying way too much seed of stuff that I'm now starting to realise just how much space some of this needs. Unless of course the book is being over cautious at how much space to allow?

How many shallots typically come from planting each shallot in the ground? I'm guessing I could have probably got away with putting just a v small amount of onions in the front and the garlic in the rear.

In the end however, the other half of that bed, to the right, which I was originally thinking of putting potatoes or leeds, I decided to put some of the garlic down in that entire space instead (so again 75cm x 66x). Using the book going with 4inches apart, 9 inches between rows.

This is just supermarket bought garlic from a couple of weeks ago, as I never found any other alternative, so I have no clue as to what type of garlic it will be. I'm presuming its even usable

Quick question on the garlic cloves...I seperated the cloves from the garlic. Do you also need to take the main hard skin off? so that you can smell the strong garlic smell...or would that be bad. One did peel off too much accidentally and smelt so was unsure if was a bad thing to go in - popped it in anyways

many thanks for helping this weird noobie, I hope to sometime in the future return the favour if I ever manage to catch up with you lot

cheers,
Tuck

TUCK
The spacing of 9 inch between rows is so you can walk down to weed if you are using a raised bed that can be reached from all sides to weed just plant the bulbs with the smaller spacing, the 6in between plants also means you can plant 3in from the edge of the bed and get more in.

aha - thanks for that I'll prob adjust it a little again to make use of the most I can get in there

any ideas on the storage of the remaining bulbs? will they go off quickly?

Hi Tuck

I would have thought it's a little late to plant shallots. I've been taught that they go in on the shortest day and are harvested on the longest day. I don't think you'll get much of a crop from them to be honest so you can probably plant them a bit closer than recommended. I would also eat the spare ones but someone else may know better.

Stick at it Tuck, plant them and see what you get. If you have too many they are great pulled young and eaten raw or stir-fried as spring onions. You will get a crop. By the way, you can't store any left over bulbs - they will sprout whether you plant them or not.

Chantal
Did you plant your shallots on 21 December last year. I don't know anyone who did.

Alan

I planted them in pots in my greenhouse and planted them out a few weeks ago when they were sprouting and had a solid mass of roots. I did this last year and got a very good crop.

There's an older guy on our plot who always gets his shallots into the ground in on 21 December and out on 21 June and has an absolutely amazing crop each year.

As said - just get them into the ground. What doesn't mature can be used as mild onions in salads or for cooking and won't be wasted.

I have (and I duck at this point, waiting for JB to leap in) kept poorly performing onions/shallots in the ground throughout the summer and the fllowing winter, in the hope of fooling them into thinking they are new in the spring (if you see what I mean?!?) with some success. They grow on the following spring/summer and result in good onions in the autumn - but it's an awful waste of space.

In reply to Tuck.
(my view on some of your querys)

'In the Grow Your Own Veg book by Carol Cline (v good book btw) it said to space them 6inchs apart, and 10inchs between rows which I did.'

yes this is standard advice. 6" in-row spacing for shallots and 4" in-row soacing for onions. most advice on garlic is 6" if possible.

10" between rows is normal advice. actually i take odds with 'between row spacing' for veg alot of the time. why is the between row spacing so large.
1)So to help howing
2)but the main reason i feel is that we have taken mechanised farming planting distances and just accepted them into our thinking!
the 10" or 12" has more to do with tractor wheel sizes than plant requirements i feel.
3)its a throw back to times when vegegtables were planted in narrow drills.

But home gardeners are more and more using bed system. Equidistant spacing alot of the time is better for beds.
1)better use of space
2)better canoping effect of leaves thus reducing weeding

Joy Larkcom ( who has written good veg books) advises adding the in-row spacing and between row spacing and halfing this figure to get our planting equidistant spacing.ie. onions 4" by 10". so plant at 7" apart each way.

I have read 'square foot gardening' and most of the time the advice is just to plant with the in-row spacing equidistantly. more and more i find myself agreeing with this in theorey and practice.

So if you using a raised bed. i would certainly not be afraid of growing
shallots 6" each way and onions 4" each way for the plants growing needs. though 4" apart does make howing impractical, and both these plants require reguler weeding since they have no canoping effect to suppress weeds. unlike say leafy vegetables.


'should I just eat them instead before they waste or could they even last another year?'

You could; just be aware that bulbs and seeds for growing may have been treated with some form of fungicide treatment. i don't know if your shallots have been, but i would suspect that the food regulations governing such treatment to edible bulbs and seeds in the shops do not apply as such to bulbs or seeds for growing!

bye the way. shallots store very well. and in fact you can save shallots for planting out again next year. i don't buy shallot sets anymore. it is not genarally advisable to do so with onions though (for one thay don't store well enough). garlic you can, and actully it is quite recommended that you do! But it may be advisable to get proper sowing garlic rather than shop shelf garlic intially.

When did you sow your garlic? Most garlic will not form bulbs unless it gets a venerlisation period (period of cold) for i think its 2 weeks at under 5c degrees?

If you sowed recently in march, i feel that your garlic may not bulb up. it will look like it has died., but leave it there and in the autumn it will come back to life. it will bulb up the following year. i took such plants and put in little pots, and planted out following febuary and i did get bulbs. not great size though. good flavour though. you can leave in ground. but you probably wish to turn over your beds at this time, thus thats why i put mine in pots.

the best way to grow garlic generally is:
1)to sow bulbs late september / october.
2)Or you can sow in pots in december. put outside after say three weeks in pots so that garlic experience cold. plant out into bed say late febuary

'Quick question on the garlic cloves...I seperated the cloves from the garlic. Do you also need to take the main hard skin off?'

No. don't take off the individual cloves hard skin. this protects garlic from rotting in the ground.

You should also try an carefully seperate cloves so that the pithy bit holding the cloves together at the root end breaks with the clove. ie. each clove should have a piece of the pith left on. this prevents rots, and removing of such can break the rooting point on the clove. so try to leave on.

On the subject of garlic.
have a look at www.thegarlicfarm.co.uk

wow...thats some in depth info, many thanks I really appreciate it.

I'll keep my shallots in and see what happens. A couple of them from the bag that I bought (it was a council run garden centre - had about 30 shallots in - only 50p so not the end of the world if fails) had some green shoots sticking up about a centimetre or 2. I may get lucky and at least get a small crop from it. I'll be pleased to just get something edible from my garden, I dont expect massive yields

I think when I glanced at the books for planting shallots it said until march time, so that made me think, well up here in the North East, we're usually later than down sarrfffff Here's hoping I'll get away with it

I'm guessing I'll have no joy at all with getting anything edible from the garlic cloves I planted then.

In that case I might possibly uproot them and just put something else in its place.

I did see someone on ebay, selling a pack of about 30 garlic cloves, that they'd planted around october time and meant to be well routed......at about 7.50 with delivery. I'm tempted to possibly try that, but perhaps I'll be best and safest just to hang fire til next year and plant them properly.

quick question....are Spring Onions, like those bought in the shops, just small onions pulled early from the ground before they're given time to mature, or a completely different plant?

cheers,
Tuck

I've only just put my shallots in, so I'm keeping fingers crossed too. I bought some sante from Kings and the instructions specifically said not to plant until early April - might be just for that variety, but if you don't plant them you'll definitely get none!

Onion sets generally are not sown till april. Not knowing any better at the time i thought the same applied to shallots. so i sowed at the same time as onions in April.Shallots grow fine. So have no fear of sowing shallots in april, even if you are told to sow earlier.

Onion sets are not sown earlier though because too much cold can induce flowering. which you do not want! esp if you intend to store!!

Spring onions are grown from seed. Actually ordinary onions can be grown from seed, but this is quite challenging.not for novices in my opinion! Sets are just as good i feel and easier!

On the subject of spring onions. I would strongly recommend 'Ishikura' onions. 'Ishikura' is technically another class of onion, called a japanese bunching onion. But scallions or spring omions that you buy in the supermarket are in fact usually 'ishikura'. they are long and slender. True spring onions like say 'White Lisbon' actually form a slight bulb on the end. similar in size to a pickling onion.

'Ishikura' are easier to grow and maintain their quality for longer in the field. i personnally don't bother growing real spring onions anymore. Not sure if garden centres stock 'Ishikura' most of the time. But most seed companys do through mail order.

An idea for you:
If you have any left over normal onion sets. you can sow these densely, say 2" apart.And cut off green part for salads like spring onions! they grow very quickly!

Totally agree-no problem planting shallots in April-Its a myth that they have to be planted early-all plants need warmth to grow and you dont get that until April-and Blimey we certainly got warmth today!!

you're not kidding there.

wish I hadn't cut my hair short on a #3 a couple of days ago to reveal my near balding head. bit of sunstroke suffering ongoing now I think, stonking headache!!

It didnt even look that hot outside either, but sun was very intense.

just got home to check, and I've noticed that a couple of the shallots that had a centimetre or 2 of soft whitish stalk coming out of it seems to now be harder and darker. I'm presuming thats a good thing and its starting to form