PETITION to the PM for MORE allotments

[Cider Boys]

I tend to agree with Piglet’s opinions regarding politicians; the other views are at best very naïve and tend to flatter the motives of politicians. Generally most people become politicians because they want power and consider that they know better than anyone else how the country should be run. It is not surprising that most of our politicians come from a legal background because this training aids them in their most important objective of all and that is of winning arguments at all costs. You will notice many polilticians often refer to democracy (when it suits them) as a wonderful virtue that they have fought long and hard to support but dismiss with contempt the beliefs of the electorate when they differ from their own autocratic views.

It may be controversial but for decades public opinion have supported by an overwhelming majority that immigration should be restricted, but until very recently anyone advancing this view was instantly branded a racist.

The death penalty was never removed from our law by public opinion it was imposed on us by politicians that think they have only themselves to answer to.

The murder rate in this country is now at a rate none of us would have ever accepted without a death penalty option. The argument ran that life in prison was a more civilised response. Life was supposed to mean life but now convicted murderers are released to commit murder again against their fellow citizens. It is now time to return the death penalty for premeditated murders such armed robbery and the killing police officers because it the duty of politicians to protect the innocent from the guilty criminals. Shamefully our lot prefer not to upset the human rights of low life.

Perhaps Enoch was right; I just hope there is the time and the honesty to confront the problems before it is too late.

Barney

[dante]

If Barney's redneck ranting reflects the opinion of the majority of the UK population - which I suspect it might - then all I can say is thank God for our politicians, who, for all their faults save us from the hang 'em, flog 'em, send 'em back to where they came from followers of the Demon (Saint?) Enoch - who was, by the way a politician
By the way, I thought this was a thread about the retention and promotion of allotments - which I entirely support - on a Forum concerning vegetable gardening, not a forum for right-wing ravings - which I despise and deplore.

[Mr Potato Head]

Last time I looked Barney, overwhelming majorities still win elections, and whilst we might not get the MP's we want, perhaps we get the ones we deserve.

As for the death penalty preventing murder... how does it compare to countries that still have the death penalty, say like the US?

[Cider Boys]

Mr Potato Head

The United States also banned the death penalty but many states quickly re-introduced it due to public opinion. I have just finished listening to my local news and I am informed of a murder of a male in Weston-Super-Mare and another murder over the Christmas holiday in Bath. The problem with the opponents of the death penalty is they will not even consider the arguments. When we had the death penalty in this country murders made national headlines, they are now common place. I am not happy with this and perhaps for the sake of the innocent we should reintroduce the death penalty to see what does happen?

Dante

Thanks for your insults, it confirms what I think about people who can only call names when they have no counter arguments.
Barney

[dante]

Allotments
Vegetable gardening

[Mr Potato Head]

Barney, has the reintroduction of the death penalty done anything in the US to reduce the number of murders?

Also, I would contend your assertion that all murders made national news. Certainly the death penalty did not stop Victorian London being rife with murders, and it was only the salacious ones that made headlines... much like today.

Finally, much as I'd like to continue this particular line of discussion, I feel that it's got well away from the topic. With approval from all participants, I'd like to split it (at the point from Cider Boys first post) into a new topic - as I think both have merit for further debate. Please PM me if you disagree.

[Cider Boys]

Mr Potato Head

You ask a question about the USA, the USA has the death penalty but actually executes very few murderers. Except for Texas most states keep their convicted murderers for years on death row and most die of old age. It is therefore not realistic to take statistics from a country that has the death penalty but where murderers are unlikely to receive it.

If you consider a country such as Singapore you do receive the death penalty if you are convicted. Statistics here clearly demonstrate that this has had an overwhelming effect on the reduction of crimes such as murder and drug offences because the sentence is certain and swiftly carried out.

Last year a local schoolboy from a village near me was attacked by a group of youths who decided to kick him repeatedly in the head in a totally unprovoked attack, perhaps they may not have been so willing were they to receive the noose for their wicked cowardly attack. The teenager later died of these horrific head injuries.

Perhaps I may be allowed to ask you the questions, why have the murder rates more than doubled since the abolition of capital punishment? Why should murderers be released to commit murders again? How do you propose to reduce this appalling crime of murder?

Barney

[Mr Potato Head]

The ultimate problem for the ultimate solution is that sometimes people are innocent...

Sadly, I can't really give a lengthy reply now, but I'll come back to this on Monday!

[carlseawolf]

i'm with most people on the death penalty for crimes like;
premeditated murder
raping of minors
murdering of police officers

it's not what i class as the best option for a CIVILIZED SOCIETY but a dead person can not commit a crime again ,but until life imprisonment for a life lost is a dead cert in a court room the hanging debate will carry on being debated .
forget civil or human rights for criminals as they lost that privalage the second they did the crime .
and if our mp's did something that the general pubic would beleave then this debate on hanging will not come back to haunt them !

[Granny]

Carleseawolf, Most people?!
----------Granny

[carlseawolf]

if as you say ( MOST PEOPLE ) are not in favour of the death penalty then why has the goverment not let the people vote on this subject and find out aleast what they think. and if the majority is on the side of yes, then if it is put in law at least he can say he did what the people wanted .

[peter]

The problem with the death penalty argument, like all political questions, is in three stages.

Specifically.
1/. The socio-economic background of most politicians pre-disposes them to the anti viewpoint.

2/. The politicians know from opinions surveys what the vote in favour would be.

3/. Therefore to get the result they want they reserve the decision to themselves.

Generally.
1/. They want a result.
2/. They try to weight the question or "push" the result they want with "our" tax money.
3/. If they do not get the answer they want they ask someone else a slightly different question.

Repeat until they get the answer they wanted.

Bit like Harlow North, they did not get the result they wanted so they ask the question again.
Bit like Stanstead airport, they did not get the answer they wanted, so they re-framed the question.

[carlseawolf]

thank you peter for summing up one of the reasons we don't trust MP'S they use the system to get the result they need not for the common good.
as a last note on this subject , the newspapers tellus about the bad polititions and the scandles and these are supposed to be a pack of lies
IF POLITITIONS WERE WHITER THAN WHITE THERE WOULD BE NO NEWS TO REPORT ,AND HOW COME VERY FEW LIABLE CASES ARE TAKE TO COURT OR APOLOGIES WRITTEN IN THE PAGES OF NEWSPAPERS .
TIME TO PUT THIS BACK TO THE ALLOTMENT FORUM !

[Alison]

On the question of the death penalty, I am sure that one reason that MPs always vote against the death penalty is that if they voted for it, they would then feel personally responsible for subsequent hangings. After all, without the Act being passed, capital punishment would not be possible, so MPs would have the direct responsibility. That is a very grave burden to have on ones conscience, especially as there have been several recent cases where people convicted of murder have been shown years later to be innocent.

I agree that where someone has been convicted of premeditated cold-blooded murder a life sentence should mean a life sentence.

Likely reasons for the increase in murders and violent crime include: the easy availability of knives, the extreme violence now seen in films and computer games, the binge-drinking culture, the increase in drug addicts robbing to fuel their habit, the lack of consistent parenting.....

The shoddy diet of so many people also causes too much aggression. There was an experiment at Aylesbury young offenders' institution when half the inmates were given daily supplements of omega-3 oils and the other half were given placebos. The placebo group showed no change; whereas amongst the omega-3 lot violence dropped by nearly half.

Alison
Put junk in, you get junk out.

[Allan]

In my opinion the sole aim of any policy on murder should be to minimise the number of future murders. All this talk of making somebody pay the price sickens me. So much depends on the personality of the individual undergoing trial. To me the the mere thought of being locked up in a cell even 'apprehended' is an unimaginable horror but it would not bother some people.
I am equally against robbing people of choosing the right to die if life is pointless and unbearable.
Allan