Kitchen Garden Forum

Evening All,
Have just recenly found out that as of 2007 will not be able to buy Derris anymore, due to some faceless wa- sorry plonker who says i is now banned.
As i try and garden organically what do i use now as protection against all the little darlings!!!
Answers on a postcard to......
regards Paul

I garden organically and don't use derris (not saying I'm magic or anything - just not encountered a problem that needed it yet). Why don't you try posting what you use it for and maybe people on here can give you alternatives?

Isn't derris a poison? Why would you want to use it on your vegetables?

I have used Derris Powder for years; it was always considered an ‘organic’ insecticide, presumably as it is derived from the roots of a Legume plant. I appreciate that it is toxic to fish, but used with care is quite suitable for horticulture. If this ban is to be imposed by the usual Fascists I will certainly have to stock up with some good old fashioned Derris Powder.

Barney

Mr PH,
I suppose this should be difficult to say but I must advise you never to try self sufficiency as I am afraid, as I have gathered from some of your more asinine comments, that within a couple of months you would no longer be with us as you will have died from starvation.
I suggest to you that sometime in the future you will rue making such a statement.
You sit in front of your computer but have you ever thought that most of the component parts of it would be very poisonous in one form or another.
It is not the use of Derris that is wrong it is the misuse.
JB.

Ouch!

Actually, I wasn't aware of use of derris as an insecticide, but had heard of it in a different context.

Perhaps we should be trying to square the circle of someone that says 'I'm organic' but wishes to use a poison to kill things. Obviously misuse is the issue, so perhaps it's okay to go back to using paraquat...

I thought the ideal of being 'organic' was not to use harmful substances at all, and that we should all be striving towards that, rather than complaining when we're not allowed to use something that was once considered safe, but now is not. (Asbestos cigarette anyone?)

By the way, i've just harvested some of my leeks and parsnips which have been grown without using any pesticides at all... so I won't starve, but I might smell funny

Mr Potato Head,
If you were to realise how many chemicals that Commercial Organic Producers use the original comment would not be have been made.
I have not used a single chemical this year myself but remember that you can be cock-a-hoop because you have successfully completed a year 'cos as I see it you have a lot of years to go to catch me up.
Be assured there will come a time in the future when the use of an innocuous chemical like Derris would give you the treatment you could do with but you in your gardening infancy have disposed of all the pesticides. Not a very clever move.
JB.

Hello Mr Potato Head

Yes, I have also grown and harvested many things from my garden without the use of pesticides. SO! To then imply that there is no requirement for pesticides shows a complete lack of understanding.

Barney

Mr Potato Head,

I think Johnboy is being a little unkind to you, but he is right. And there is no such thing as a non-poison. Someone somewhere in the world will react to even the most seemingly innocuous of substance, no matter whether it is a 'chemical' or not. It is all a matter of degree.

All allotmenteers and kitchen gardeners in this country are insulated from the harsh realities of the world by the supermarkets, where we can supplement our produce with whatever is on offer there. That, can of course, include organic produce from overseas. Whether you can classify that as 'organic' is debatable and whether the standards applied in those countries correspond to that of the Soil Association is another matter, and whether the SA standards are 'correct' is yet another matter!

Unfortunately the powers that be, whether in the EU or Defra, share the same delusions.

As I mentioned before, and I think you agreed with me and said that something was being considered for KG, it would be very interesting to have articles on the problems and practicalities of being self-sufficient in Veg in the UK.

JB ive not used any insecticides in the last 15 years, i dont remember a complete crop failure from insects and havn't starved. we seen to be getting into the big o little o debate yet again. from my and personal view, we as a family are not self sufficient and do not aim to be, what we are doing is reducing the amount of foreign substances injested in our diet, to give an example we have this year seen the appearance of bindweed into a strawberry bed it would have been easy to spray it during april / may amongst the ripening strawberry crop, but im not putting toxic chemicals onto stuff im harvesting to give the kids, its that simple, if that means living with bindweed so be it. most of these problems can be controlled (i didnt say completely removed) without introducing avoidable toxins into our foodchain.
the issues for someone aiming for self sufficiency or growing organically as a business are entirely different to those those of a gardener growing part of their diet.
having said the above i thought the basic aim of organics was to feed the soil naturally to grow healthy plants which were stong enough to cope with insect and disease attack as part of a naturally diverse interdependant ecosystem.

Dear All Pragmatic Gardeners

I do not know for certain if Derris is to be banned by the EU or not.

However the SA hypocrites may still come to our rescue. Remember when the EU wanted to prohibit the use of Copper Compounds from March 2002. The SA soon started bleating and based on ‘necessity’ the decision was made not to prohibit Copper Compounds. What a farce, how can they grow ‘organic’ potatoes whilst still using Copper to prevent blight.

Barney
SA reg No b0110cks

As usual with the 'organic' debate, we're arguing over the same things... I'm not suggesting that idealism should obliterate all practicality, but that perhaps we shouldn't complain when the bar is raised, but instead seek new ways to achieve the same results using fewer 'bad' products.

Citing what commerce does as support for your argument doesn't really hold much water, as frankly I'm not inclined to think that because a commercial outfit does anything it's somehow acceptable. Yes, of course those who produce commercially are probably stretching the legal boundaries of what can be considered organic. However, we are not (mostly) commercial gardeners and surely the reason that many of us 'grow our own' is precisely because we don't want to do what the commercial sector does!

I'm not suggesting that you abandon pesticides, I've simply chosen not to use them; and am happy to live with the results. Sure, I've lost some crops, some through pests and some through inexperience, but I shall continue learning, and eating the stuff that does grow. My biggest lesson this year is that stuff still grows even when I get things 'wrong'.

So, educate me. Why should I use derris or any other insecticide when, apparently, we have all (inexperienced and experienced alike) done without them?

Hello Mr Potato Head

Of course there is no need to use insecticides if you do not need them. However when you do have an infestation of insects threatening the health of your crop you may wish to control them. Insecticides allow you to control and prevent unwanted insects.

Barney

Yep, I asked for that one

I think i was trying to be a bit more philosophical...

So, why haven't we needed this stuff so far? Is there any point worrying about the availability of derris (or pesticides in general) if we're not likely to need it? Are there fewer insects? Do insects always eat everything? Does this matter?

I know that JB may think I'm being asinine, but i'm really only trying to question the purpose of introducing something that appears to be quite nasty onto my vegetables, and potentially into me.

Call me lucky, or call me a fantastic gardener (if you like ) but I've been growing vegetables seriously for 9 years and have only ever used fatty acid insecticide, which isn't poisonous to anything.
So it can be done on a domestic basis.
I see your point Mr Potato Head.