Taking apple tree cuttings

[vivie veg]

Does anyone know how to take apple tree cuttings?

I don't want to graft it on to a rootstock, just take a few cuttings so that I get a nice big tree...I have memories of clambering up my grand parents' apple trees and would like to get a similar sized tree myself. Also an article in the last edition of Organic Way pointed out the advantages of not using a rootstock.

I have a Lord Derby cooking apple that is well established and producing quite a few good strong growths which will be suitable for cuttings. I did buy two weedy specimens from Kwiksave last year, but do not know what root stock they were on and doubt they will give a really big tree. Having said they were weedy, they have developed well during the last year, one has a fruit on this year and both are developing fruiting spurs now ready for next year.

[Johnboy]

Hi Viv,
I would be more than intrigued to learn what the Organic way says about growing Apples on their own roots. To me this is a non starter as you may well have a Lord Derby Cooking Apple but you have not got the foggiest Idea whether it will even make a large tree. It is more than likely that the large trees in your grandparents garden were grafted on a rootstock.
Grafting of rootstocks have been around a lot longer that the Malling system and Pear trees on my property that are well over 150 years old were grafted even then. You could spend the rest of your life expecting a tree to grow to your desired size but if that tree has not got it in it's make-up it will never acheive it.

[vivie veg]

Hi Johnboy,

Thanks for that..but I still think I'll experiment...nothing ventured nothing gained!

The Organic way said in an article Fruity Developements Own-root fruit trees Traditionally, tree or top fruits such as apples and pears, have been grown on rootstock....etc, However, both the umpublished work of Hugh Ermen, ....and the continuing research by the plant nursery 'Cool Temperate' are set to challenge this orthodoxy. Hugh concluded that fruit trees grown on their own roots possess a number of advantages over those grafted onto rootstocks. They tend to be healthier, without losing any of the varietal vulnerability to a particular disease, and produce fruit of optimum quality for that variety, with regards to flavour, size and keeping quality. He also felt that the degree of self-fertility increased.

One of the primary objections to own-root trees is their ultimate size. Many growers advocate certain traditional growing practices to remedy this. Grassing upto the bases of the trees or restricting fertiliser applications keeping nitrogen levels in the soil low, thus reducing the growth rate. Withholding irrigation, except during prolonged drought, also reduces growth. Trees are only pruned in the summer and one- and two-year old branches are brought down to the horizontal, reducing vigour and encouraging the formation of fruit buds. Crucially, this slowing growth rate also induces earlier cropping, thus helping to solve the other problem associated with own root trees - along wait until fruiting starts.

Once cropping has commenced, normal feeding and irrigation practices can be initiated. At this stage the tree's energies are directed towards fruit production and growth slows down to manageable levels.

Cool Temperate hope to offer own-root apples, pears and plums for sale within 2 years. Hugh Ermen's research and breeding work continues at Garden Organic Yalding and in his own back garden.

(sorry if I've made any errors while typing this lot in!)

I also think that the 'Article' is a very thinly disguised advert, so must be taken as such.

[ken]

I believe the orthodx view is that you can't take get cuttings to work from cultivated apples - something to do with the fact that their genes have got too mixed up over the centuries. The RHS book I have on propogation says nothing about taking cuttings of malus, the apple family, although it does recommend cuttings for lots of other trees and shrubs.
Having said that,I've grown a very attractive crab apple from seed. It was meant to be a species but it hasn't come true as it has got beautiful bronzy foliage instead of green, and red flowers instead of white. I took three or four cuttings from this last autumn and stuck them in a pot and one has rooted nicely. (The others might have come away, too, but I stupidly took the polythene cover off too early.)
So there could be hope.

[Johnboy]

Hi Vivianne,
Well who am I to argue with Hugh Ermem the man who has done so much for Apple Breeding over the years.
I find the information very interesting. Old Codger as I am I do try to keep up with all aspects of production and methods and this information is totally new to me and I shall persue it more.
What I did say was that you are after a particular size tree and I doubt that even Hugh could tell you what that will be on most of the varieties available. You would love my orchard as I have a Knightwick Bitter Cider Apple which at my shoulder height (around 5ft) if I put my arms around the trunk my fingers do not meet by 39 inches and my span is 71 inches so Apple Trees do not come much larger. It houses the Swing that my children used to play on and when they come they always go down to the orchard to have a swing under the pretence that they are taking their children down for a swing!!
Knightwick Bitter has an interesting history but I will not boor you with it.
I thank you for the imformation.
Sincerely, Johnboy.

[Johnboy]

Hi Ken,
I have done the same as you and Collected Seed from a particular Crab Apple which is a super example of the species. They are only in their second year so a little early to tell if they are going to breed true but I doubt that they will somehow. I collected the Apples and made some super Crabapple Jelly but this is not the main reason for growing them I want them in my hedgerow around the orchard as they are super pollinators and I have a few Cox's Pippins and they are not doing very well and I think it is a pollination problem. They did exceedingly well until a very large unnamed eating apple tree was snapped in half by a gale and although there is about eight different apples in the orchard the Cox's have not done well since I lost that tree.

[vivie veg]

Thanks Ken,

I think I will treat the cuttings the same as for redcurrents (unless any other suggestions are forthcoming) and see what happens.

I might also try a few seeds....after all that's how Brambleys came about!

[ken]

Just to add a bit more about crab apples from seed. I've bought my seed at different times from Chiltern, and what they have on offer does vary from time to time. I agree crab apples are supposed to be good pollinators for cookers and eaters, but I was really after decorative trees for the garden. I've got four of malus sargentii, which is very slow growing, more of a shrub than a tree - covered in white blossom in spring, followed by tiny red apples. I've also grown malus siberica - delicate looking tree with early blossom and foliage, and small crab apples. The bronzy leaved one mentioned above came from a packet that was supposed to be the Japanese crab - I think that's malus floribunda. I spotted that one of the seedlings was bronze leaved and potted it on, and it's superb. I also potted on a green-leaved seedling. This has turned out to be quite a tall crab which so far hasn't produced a lot of flowers; the few fruit it has produced have been biggish for a crab, small for a domestic apple. This is the most disappointing, but it's the chance you take when you grow things from seed. Finally, and most recently, I've grown one from the southern states of America, the name of which escapes me for the moment: small and spreading, attractive leaves and virtually evergreen, but it hasn't flowered yet.
Anyway, disappointments and all, I've found this a cheap and enjoyable way of stocking the garden!

[oldherbaceous]

Ken was the Malus from the southern states of America, Malus. angustifolia by any chance as this is a semi-evergreen.

Kind regards Old Herbaceous.

Theres no fool like an old fool.

[Johnboy]

Hi Ken,
My seed came from a roadside tree which has a red fush tint the skin colour of the fruit and is of slightly above average size. It may well be a hybrid but I have seen the same tree in hedgerows several miles apart. Of course it could be the result of somebody throwing an apple core out of a car window but from the taste I doubt it.
But it is most decidedly a Crab Apple. The sort that two seconds after taking a bite you think you have contracted Mumps!

[Carole B.]

Hi Vivvie Veg,I should think hardwood cuttings taken in autumn would be the best bet about 12" long and put into a gritty trench in the garden until they root like you would a blackcurrant.My elderly neighbour grew a Rev.Wilks cooker from a cutting he took about 50 years ago,it is on the boundry between the houses and became a multi-stemmed tree about 15ft high,it crops well but sometimes misses a year.If you want a single stem you will have to watch out for any below ground buds breaking.

[Johnboy]

Hi Carole,
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the hardwood cuttings as woody cuttings are so much better taken at that time of the year. If as Vivianne says she takes them like Redcurrants the tiime for taking hardwood cuttings is October and November when the wood has hardened up and is dormant.
To get the best cuttings no summer pruning should be done or at least leave some especially for your cuttings.

[ken]

Thanks, Old Herby - yes, the semi-evergreen crab is angustifolia.

Also, yes, the cutting I rooted from one of my other crab apple trees was a hardwood cutting, taken in the autumn.

Out of interest, I mentioned to one of the experts at the national fruit collection at Brogdale once that I was growing crab apples from seed. He was incredulous. 'WHat do you want to do that for - you'll have no idea how big they're going to grow.' I've been happy sith the results, but he's right to the extent that apple trees can grow pretty big if they are not on a dwarfing rootstock.

[vivie veg]

Thanks everyone for the contributions....I will let everyone know how things progress, but it might be a few years before I'm reporting on fruiting!

Also apologies for being so late with my thanks, but the family computer caught a bug and had to have intensive care over the last week. Yes, we do have firewalls, filters etc, but the little darlings ignore the warning signs and download anyway!