A challenge to assumptions on old carpet as a weed control.

General tips / questions on seeding & planting

Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter

User avatar
peter
KG Regular
Posts: 5879
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:54 pm
Location: Near Stansted airport
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

For some time I have been getting irritated by assumptions being cited by Councils, Organisations and Individuals about the terrible harm one can do to ones health by using old carpets as a weed control mulch. Kitchen Garden itself is publishing this assumption with nothing to back it up.

The bit that is really bugging me is the statement that "because of contaminants accumulated in the pile". :x

This presumably means stuff that got on peoples footwear and rubbed off on the carpet. So do these concerned people hover above their allotment and fly through their house, or wash their footware at the door, as well as never lying on a rug? :roll:
No one has yet directly quoted any research with numbers or details, it is all just hearsay and assumption.

I did some research of my own using google and checked a number of search results pages from a search on 'carpets contain chemicals'.

The vast majority of these were talking about chemicals used to clean carpets and were from companies trying to sell something, either "safer" chemical to clean with or devices to clean without chemicals.
Nothing like someone trying to sell something eh :wink: .

However of the sixty or so I've looked at so far only one has ANY research or proof of what they say.

The rest are all making bald statements with no proof.

Greenpeace is the honourable exception so far :) and their research paper is "undertaken to investigate whethercertain hazerdous chemicals were present as components in new carpets and if so in what quantities".
They also had http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/Product...3&productid=70 which helps you choose new products.

The main chemicals people seem concernerd with are phalates and formaldehyde, which in the open will evaporate, it is dangerous where it can build up and be inhaled. Also any treatments applied to carpet to prevent insect damage/infestation, dirt sticking to fibres etc.

To be honest I am more worried about painting inside my house, or using those wonderful air freshener devices. Read up on those two substances and you will go back to limewash and natural odours on the spot.

=====
Risk always needs a balanced view and sometimes a percentage chance attached to it.

It is dangerous to use a knife to cut vegetables, but how else are you to cut them,?

A chainsaw is much more dangerous and karate chopping swedes is more likely to hurt your hands.
So you use a knife, look at what you are doing and do it with care.
=====

Any dust in your carpet is probably more than matched by the same dust, from the same sources, being deposited on your vegetable plot by the wind and rain.

Think of all the tyres and brake pads on all those vehicles you see every day, where do you think most of the wear ends up? Together with worn out tarmac it either blows away on the wind or runs away with the rainwater run-off. Those attractive looking ponds by any new road, are there to allow some of those contaminants to settle out, they never seem to be cleaned out mind.

DDT the first and possible biggest environmental contaminant deliberately spread by man is found everywhere, even in the Antartic, I have seen the old film (second world war) of mosquito eradication (aeroplanes dropping clouds of the stuff) people being deloused (hand portable blowers pumping clouds of the stuff into peoples clothing and every nook & cranny of their person).

In fact one of the sellers proves my point with its blurb and I quote.
"Misconception #2:
The only reason to clean carpets is to get out the dirt.
No. As you probably know, outdoor air contains pollens, fungus, bacteria, air pollution, cigarette smoke, car exhaust -- and hundreds of other chemicals. When you and your family members come into your home, you carry those pollens, bacteria and chemicals in your hair and on your skin, clothing and shoes. Not surprisingly, all those chemicals, pollens and bacteria wind up --you guessed it -- in your carpet."

Guess where the outside air dumps some of it outside?
Guess what you were breathing in while outside?

Pollution is a bugger, there is little point in trying to avoid being polluted, lots of point in avoiding polluting. Shutting the windows because the factory down the road is belching out pollutants does not do much good, getting them to stop belching does.

On another forum someone said "Let me quote Bob Flowerdew from the April 1994 Gardeners' World magazine, page 60 talking about the ingredients of a compost:-

"Old woollen and cotton clothes, bedding and carpets, newspaper and cardboard will compost if well soaked and well mixed in."

Most of us consider him to be one of the most respected organic gardeners around and it would be interesting to know if he still holds this view 12 yrs down the line?
"

Sorry for banging on, but it really grates when people say something and persuade others about it without citing proof.

So the questions are;
Does carpet control weeds? Yes.
Is is a bugger if left down too long, getting stuck and grown-through? Yes.
Should one avoid foam backed ones, because the foam disintegrates and gets in the soil. Yes.
Does new carpet contain chemicals that can be harmful in an area where they can not dissapate? Yes.
Is a normally cleaned, used carpet loaded with toxins?

Will someone please answer, WITH FACTS, no assumptions, no "I read it somewhere", this last question


Meldrew moment over,..... I'll get my coat then?
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.

I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
User avatar
oldherbaceous
KG Regular
Posts: 14432
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Beautiful Bedfordshire
Has thanked: 711 times
Been thanked: 709 times

I bet that feels better now you have got that of your chest Peter. It certainly makes for interesting reading.

Kind regards Old Herbaceous.

It will either rain or get dark.
User avatar
richard p
KG Regular
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:22 pm
Location: Somerset UK

Is a normally cleaned, used carpet loaded with toxins?

no
the fabric of a used carpet is stable nylon / polyester type compounds which will not release significant quantities of toxins. there will be some dirt in the carpet which the cleaning has not removed, normal household dirt wont contain significant levels of toxins,
this is of course my opinion , but i dont think you will easily find any quantative data or scientific analysis of the crud on household carpets
User avatar
Jenny Green
KG Regular
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:47 pm
Location: East Midlands

Surely if they were toxic we couldn't have them in our homes? After all, they do break down a little even under cover, with people treading on them and liquid getting spilt on them. Then you get babies crawling around on them and putting their hands in their mouths.
I think this is more to do with wanting to discourage people from using them as weed suppressors. After all, they're a complete b*gger to get up if they aren't regularly lifted and turned. Also, some allotmenteers think they look unsightly.
Trevor Holloway
KG Regular
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:04 pm
Location: Surrey

I have read that hessian backed carpet is good for paths.
Some of the change in thinking may be due to the fact that over the years nylon / plastic carpets have been replacing wool carpets, obviously the wool ones will rot down but the plastic ones won't.
Besides if you use carpet for paths you can have colour all year round (or did I read you were supposed to use it upside down) !

WARNING : No researh went into the making of this post.
User avatar
Chantal
KG Regular
Posts: 5665
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:53 am
Location: Rugby, Warwickshire
Been thanked: 1 time

I spent Saturday, with the help of an allotment neighbour, removing rotting carpet from various places on my plot, notably under the compost heaps! I inherited enough carpet for a decent sized room and it was terribly hard to move so it's something I'll never be putting down as I'd hate to wish the grief I had on anyone in the future.
Chantal

I know this corner of the earth, it smiles for me...
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Hi Peter,
The use of carpets in the garden was an idea that was brought up in the early days of the HDRA. It was intended for use as pathing ONLY. Then some bright bugger, who should have known better, decided that if you cover the whole garden with it to blanket out weeds it was the thing to do.
There are allotments all over the country where it now will take a JCB to lift them. This is the result of informing people who know nothing about gardening who I call the "Organic Magazine Brigade" who after laying their carpet for a year thought better of it and abandoned the plots. There was a great infux of people who did just that because the magazine failed to tell them that there was some hard work attached to growing.
I have never subscribed to the use of carpet and have always used HD Black Polythene instead.
As others have said when the idea began carpets were made of wool based fabric and perfectly safe but the use of man made synthetic fabrics for carpeting has many pitfalls. As to there toxicity I simply do not care as anybody using carpet must take their chances.
I Simply feel that it is the wrong thing to use on soil. I find the use of Polythene clean and effective and it is far easier to use and has no chance of pollution of any kind.
I sincerely hope all the toys are back in the pram.
JB.
User avatar
peter
KG Regular
Posts: 5879
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:54 pm
Location: Near Stansted airport
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

Johnboy, thanks for the post :) .

Totally agree with you and Chantal about leaving them down too long. I use mine for two purposes.

1/. Weed suppressant over my Squash plot, hence down for the growing season, lifted at harvest, folded up on a couple of pallets and under thick blue builders plastic sheet for the rest of the year.

2/. Weed suppressant round my blackcurrants, infested with couch and bind weed. These are going this year as I have replacement bushes and location previously weed freed over 18 months, so all over to Squash in 2007.

If used, carpet should be lifted and moved once a year. Otherwise roots penetrate, soil/dust/vegetation builds up on top and they start to merge with the topsoil, OK if totally wool, but usually nylon or polyethelene somewhere in the weave.

I note from personal experience :oops: that HD black polythene is just as bad to get up, if put down by an idiot who leaves it semi permanent or abandons his plot.

I would also point out that carpet does allow rainwater to penetrate where plastic sheet does not.

However the thread is straying away from what I orginally asked for, proof of contaminants which would preclude this temporary use.

Regards, Peter.
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.

I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
Carole B.
KG Regular
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:36 pm
Location: Isle of Wight

I only use carpet to cover green manure on my raised beds and the carpet was new offcuts so unless it starts out contaminated with 'toxins'I can only presume it's clean. 'Toxin' seems to be a 'scare all' word at the moment,we even have them in our bodies apparently!
Trevor Holloway
KG Regular
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:04 pm
Location: Surrey

So I have "Toxins" in my body - Oh no. I must go and drink some Domestos !

Only joking - I am still going to use the carpets on the paths between the beds, if the carpet is not to be used for this (ie recycling) it will end up on a landfill site = big compost heap.
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Hi Peter,
Some time back I had a heart attack and couldn't do anything all year. I got some friends to cover my beds with Black HD Polythene.It had been down for five years and I had no problems in lifting it last year so I do not quite understand why it could be as difficult as Carpet to lift. No doubt in the fullness of time you will tell me. I will admit that the soil was awfully dry under the P but very soon became wet. The trouble is that somehow couch grass and nettles find their way through Carpet.
I must admit that I am as mystified about the so called nasties in Carpet and if they are that bad should we think twice before having them in the house! Me thinks this is something Organic again!!
JB.
User avatar
peter
KG Regular
Posts: 5879
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:54 pm
Location: Near Stansted airport
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Contact:

Johnboy, it was a case of correct or incorrect use, as I think is often the case with carpet.

The HD BP I had a problem with had been used at random across a ten rod plot, the plot had been run by a parachute gardener.

i.e. he landed at random in the couch, dug and cleared a randomly sized bed, sowed something and was then surprised when the weeds regrew.

So one year he tried using BP (probably not thick enough grade) over the top of the couch on segemnts of the plot and buried the edges to anchor it, however he carried on with the parachuting on the rest and guess where he put the detritus?

Yup, on the BP, probably thought it was a good anchoring method. After a few years, where he did not lift the BP, he gave up.

When I took over some had UV deteriorated, some was buried two foot deep, some had neolithic earthworks on top, most was riven through with couch roots and where it had stayed whole the ground, clay, was as concrete. Hence it would not peel off, but had to come up in doormat sized pieces.

Doubtless your plots were cleaner to start with, your friends knew how to apply BP properly and you are not fool enough to mistreat it while its down.

As for your last comment, yes I think you are right, but its also a myth I think, hence this thread.

Regards, Peter.
Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.

I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Hi Peter,
The strange thing about all this is it was the Organic gardeners that introduced the carpet to the garden and gardening in the first place and they are the ones who are now complaining that carpets ar causing polution. It would appear that they seem not to admit to the introduction in the first place.
The Black Polythene I use is HD 1250 grade which is the same as building damp membranes. I use old Tyres to hold it in position. I know that when mine was put down it cost me nearly £1000.00. for 25 rolls of the stuff and it covers a very large area still on my plot.
If everybody used Carpet like you do then everything would be fine but it is generally put down by people who have not got the first idea about growing and this is why I drew attention to the Glossy Magazine Brigade they read about the home Utopia they can so easily create. In the wrong hands Carpet is a total menace.
JB.
Carole B.
KG Regular
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:36 pm
Location: Isle of Wight

I agree Johnboy,some magazines lead novice gardeners to assume it can all be done with no work by chucking down carpet and lo and behold a couple of months later you will have perfect friable soil.I had comments from the carpet people on the next plot when I first dug my plot to clear it about all that being not needed and a waste of energy,they still have their plot but I have had 6 years of good productive cropping and they had some potatoes...last year only on about a quater of theirs.
In reality the couch and brambles grew around the outside of the carpet and proceeded to march back across the top and colonise it.To try and excavate that carpet now will be a nightmare!
I think I will stick to just incorporating my green manures by covering with a temporary strip of carpet.
Apart from any other considerations rotting carpets look such a mess and I hate that!
User avatar
Johnboy
KG Regular
Posts: 5824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: NW Herefordshire

Hi Carole,
As you say the magazines tell people how wonderfully easy it is and the trouble with this that these unsuspecting people think that the person who has written the article is an absolute professional and sadly in about 90% of the cases they are not. Then when you try to advise these people they quote chapter and verse and in certain cases to you how wrong you are and you should be doing it "their" way.
I have long advocated that the aim of every home gardener should be to be as Organic as possibly.
I feel that to try and acheive organic standard from the off is too hard and that is why many people simply fail. Well not fail but just become totally disheartened. By far the best is to get used to growing before thinking of anything else. It is what the magazines, with the SA behind them, that are laying down hard and fast rules that newcomers find so difficult. As I have mentioned many times before Organics is not a religion but a very simple way to grow good wholesome food. This does not come about over night and if newcomers were to concentrate on getting some decent returns they would, like most of us, be hooked for life. This is one of the reasons that I find the practices of the SA so distasteful and they, to my mind, are actually harming their cause by persuing such dogmatic policies. In the long run they are doing Organics a disfavour.
I must apologise to Peter for going off subject but the use of carpeting is at the root of many of the evils. Magazines tell you to lay the carpets but then fall short of telling the rest of the story.
Last edited by Johnboy on Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
JB.
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic