I would like to plant an orchard.

[Ricard with an H]

I have an area at the top of our paddock that is very fertile on the basis the grass grows twice as strong and the moles are rampant, considering the reasons I planted a sea buckthorn wind break hedge around my vegetable beds is some sort of fruit orchard a good idea.

Apple bushes maybe or a mix of apple and other fruit.

Will I have to glyphosate a whole are of the grass or can I just dig holes and glyphosate around the planting ?

I really don't want any more work other than a bit of pruning and there isn't any water up there, when I say, "Up there". It's at the top of a slope so it drains.

I've been looking at the Ashridge nursery website and whilst they do have some guidance I don't understand this roots stock thing nor most of the other technical stuff but I would buy from them because they are excellent to buy from.

If I buy apple bushes I have to buy a partner crab apple, what about soft fruit ? The area can be as much as twenty paces square, even the whole acre but I need a convenient patch so I can mow with a ride-on and not too much work with a brush-cutter.

What do you think ? A bit too ambitious for me right now ? If i'm going to fork out £200 on bare roots plants I would like it to be a sensible investment rather than a risky one.

[peter]

Keepers Nursery website should answer all your questions Richard.

Grass around or under apple trees isn't a problem.

Rootstock basically sets the size and growth-vigour of the final tree.

[FelixLeiter]

Creating an orchard is a noble pursuit and I applaud and encourage your ambition. The site you have sounds ideal, especially if it's sloping in the right direction: a north-facing slope would present a challenge, but one which can be overcome. You don't need to clear much of the grass, just keep an area of around a metre diameter clear from around the trunk. It's unlikely you'll need to weedkill any of it unless you have particularly bad creeping thistle or similar.

I would advise getting your head around different rootstocks. Putting some effort into this now will bring benefits in the long run. To generalise, rootstocks determine the vigour, and therefore the eventual size and, to an extent, habit of fruit trees. If you select the wrong rootstock you may in time find your trees are too dwarf, too tall, or may have blown over. If your nursery are as reputable as you say they are, they should be able to put you in the right direction if you explain to them your site and requirements. You mention wanting to plant apple bushes rather than trees, though, in which case the choice is simpler.

Regarding pruning, you may not need to prune at all once your trees are past their formative stage, except to remove dead wood and branches which are awkward to pick from. If you experience a dry summer in the first year or two, you may need to water to help your trees establish, but not after then.

A partner crab apple can be very ornamental, but if you are pushed for space you can select varieties which pollinate one another or themselves. Again, your nursery should point you in the right direction with this.

[Ricard with an H]

Thanks both, that has got me of to a start though i'm surprised you hadn't dissuaded me because of the salty air.

Yes the slope faces north but it isn't that much of a slope, just enough to drain rather than collect.

As regards the reputation of Ashridge nurseries my claim is limited to three purchases over two years. Quality and price have been more than I expected though I haven't tested their advice. The cynic in me will always skirt around taking advise from vendors.

Just to give you an idea about the climate here, down in town (Fishguard) it was 16 degrees with barely a breeze, people walking round in shorts. I'm 80 metres higher, it's 13 degrees and easily 20 knots southerly though a southerly doesn't tend to be salty.

The reason I chose the proposed orchard plot is that there is some shelter from S and SW to W though only for up to two metres high.

Wind off the sea has given me a ruddy complexion and hopefully clean lungs though we can't grow escalonia here unless it get's some relief from the desiccation.

Leaves from oak and ash have already fallen and sycamore is 50% fallen. Willow is 50% fallen though rowan ash are holding their leaves. I wonder how that compares around the country.

I'm aware that most successful orchards are not on the west coast of Wales and I wouldn't expect the same cropping as in Herefordshire or some estate walled garden, i'm also wondering if soft fruit might be a better option. Bramble berries are a regular autumn treat so would blackberries grow.

I suppose most of my answers need to come from experience in salty coast environments though you did get me off to a good start with the sea buckthorn. Today it's getting a regular battering but with a smile on it's face.

[peter]

Some Crab Apple's ard more thsn ornamental, John Downie makes excellent jelly, the fruits curiously resemble well made Christmas marzipan fruit.

No knowledge of their apple fertilisation capabilities, but Keepers website gives you the pollination mstches for the varieties you really want to grow.

I'm prejudiced towards orchards, I grew up with an Edwardian country estste orchard and live near the orchard-only remnants of the once world renowned Rivers Nursery, which is well looked after by its Friends of... group

[Primrose]

Was speaking the other day to a retiree who planted a small orchard In his enormous garden 20 years ago in a fit of enthusiasm. He says now that if he'd realised what a nightmare it can be at this time of year in later life, picking the fruits, processing them, trying to find homes for the surplus, and clearing up all the rotten windfalls he might have somewhat curbed his enthusiasm. But as a beneficiary of his surplus, I'm not complaining

[Geoff]

Great idea! A few things come to mind.
If you are going to grow top fruit go for everything - plums, damsons, apples and pears (do they grow nearby?).
The traditional idea is to use a metre circle of clear ground for at least the first few years when growing in grass. This adds up to quite a commitment to keep clear if you are going to grow a significant number of trees. Lots of doses of weedkiller don't really sound that good. I used rather less area and roughly weeded about twice a year at first then let the grass take over.
You talk about strimming and ride-on mowing. If you are going to strim eventually plant the trees with heavy duty spiral rabbit guards, you'll probably need them for rabbits anyway (preferably UV stabilised if they advertise them as such for a long life), which also act as strimmer guards. When using bare root trees you can use vertical stakes (which you must use) rather than the new fangled sloping ones, they are less in the way of the mower. Use good quality long life adjustable ties. The main thing to consider for mowing, and to some extent for strimming, is that you have to grow half standards not bushes, low spreading bushes are a pain to work round.
Suppliers will give good advice. I don't know the supplier you have been using. Keepers Nursery website is excellent but the trees I bought from them in 1984 haven't done as well as ones I bought more recently from Paul Jasper - he's nearer to you than Keepers. I'd always go for a medium vigour rootstock, I forget the M number.
But what to grow? Grow what you like seems an obvious first point. Maybe consider some with Welsh heritage otherwise go for tried and tested. Plums - Victoria and a yellow gage of some sort. Damson - maybe Shropshire Prune. Cooking Apple - early Grenadier, good old Bramley and maybe Lanes Prince Albert. Dessert Apple - something early maybe Discovery, something late maybe Blenheim Orange, perhaps a mid-season russet of some sort. Chose some varieties to give a long season then look at the pollination charts and tweak it a bit. We have a large fruited crab rather like a cider apple that flowers well and makes good jelly as well as my avatar crab Gorgeous. Pears - Concorde and William, if you want a late cooking pear we like our Black Worcester. We have over 25 trees which in good years like this give surpluses but it's not really a problem.
I am pretty particular about summer pruning to create a good structure of fruiting spurs.
PS : plant in square holes, the roots break out into surrounding soil better.

[sally wright]

Dear Richard,
I have had a quick search round the web and have come up with some sites for you to look at.
www.gwynfor.co.uk
www.welshfruitstocks.co.uk
www.ianstorrockandsons.co.uk
www.applewise.co.uk
I expect there are others but it is important to make sure that the trees etc that you get are the right ones as it will take between 2-5 years to get any kind of feedback on the top fruit (apples, pears, plums etc) and is very difficult to change them if they are not going to bear well due to replant disease. It is not such a problem with the soft fruit.
In general for the fruit varieties I would go for the later fruiting ones as the weather will be better because they will flower later in the spring time. Frosts will kill the flowers and cold winds can pull off the flowers and blow away the pollinating insects.
Mypex is the answer for the planting holes and plant in rows to make the mowing easier. A good windbreak will be essential, so a good idea is to plant the soft fruit round the outside of the top fruit to provide shelter. These are relatively cheap plants and can be purchased in quantity and if the yield is not so great there will be plenty of them anyway. The way I envision the shelter working is first a hedge of some description then Autumn raspberries, next row in from them some summer ones then blackcurrants with the other coloured currants in the next row. Apples pears cherries and plums in the next rows.
As for actual varieties, well you certainly won't be able to grow the more well known apples that's for sure (there's a reason why most apples are grown in Kent), but go along to a couple of heritage apple days if you can and consult the locals to see what they have. Anything that is recommended for the north of England and Scotland would probably be able to survive your conditions.
One final thought for down the line, if you have to get the ladder out to either pick or prune then the tree is too high and should be trimmed accordingly.
Regards Sally Wright.

[Ricard with an H]

I really do appreciate all the enthusiastic and helpful posts on this subject, you've-all given me so much to go-on and to research that i've had to take a step back until my partner comes home so I can get her to share this whole thing.

She loves baking with apples which gives me something to go on and the last couple of days of high wind made me realise that the perfect place for this proposed orchard needs protection from west winds.

Clearly this means a substantial wind-break to the west needs to be costed into the project.

[Motherwoman]

Just a quick tip, don't go for M9 dwarfing stock in a windy area, they'll struggle. Try M26 as half standards, bit more vigour. Not sure how you'll fare with plums as they flower earlier and catch the worse weather but if you don't try you won't know.

MW

[Ricard with an H]

but if you don't try you won't know.

MW

Or,

"The biggest risk is not taking the risk"

Is something that has pushed me for many years, i'm never comfortable with failure so i'm not about to go into this without identifying the risky parts.

Types of root-stock is something I need to learn about, i'm aware of the weather difficulties and other problems that have been pointed out like I was keen on the idea of apple bushes until Geoff pointed out the probable problems with cutting the grass around them.

I have a lot of grass to cut.

Oh-yes, just yesterday I learnt something about different root types, Geoff sent me a collection of four mint roots which all produced new growth from just the roots. The mint plants I bought early this year seem to grow like lavender where you cannot cut into the old wood and that is just what I did. It's not a happy plant and-so with the other one i'll be more careful with my pruning.

Sorry to digress.

[Motherwoman]

Risk assessment for planting an orchard:

You buy trees and they fruit = success
You buy trees and they grow but don't fruit = frustration
You buy trees and they die = wasted money and work, bang head on wall

Actions:
1. research trees and rootstocks
2. Plant windbreak
3. Prep the soil as best you can in the circumstances
4. Plant what you'll use and is likely to grow from a reputable supplier
5. Ensure easy maintenance of grass by getting the spacing right for ride-on mower
6. Water for first summer
7. An apple a day keeps the doctor away

[Geoff]

Bit more reading for you

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... pple-trees

[FelixLeiter]

Bit more reading for you

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... pple-trees

Interesting that the author poo-poos Orleans Reinette. This is absolutely my favourite apple, and was also enjoyed by Mrs Leiter. Maybe he ate it too early. It's a variety which improves with storage, and is at its best around Christmas. I agree, though, that Sunset is a cracker, as are many other recent varieties. It is easy to be beguiled by the romance of the early varieties, many of which have endured with good cause, but modern varieties have these forebears in their breeding and are a positive development.
I've never much enjoyed Cox's Orange Pippin or its relatives. Maybe it's just me.

[Tigger]

We planted ours about 15 years ago but have added to it since. Think about using dwarf stock as it's easier to pick when you're older and don't wan't to be stranded up a ladder!

We're big fans of Trees for Life at Frank P Matthews. Fabulous quality at great prices and you can order a year in advance. They'll recommend the right mix for pollination. If anything fails, they replace, including raspaberries or other fruit canes/bushes. Great company.