Kitchen Garden Forum

Hi all, This month in KG we will be discussing whether there is a place for antibiotics on the NHS or in the home and we'd love to have your views.

Those of us who have been alive for some time will all have horror stories about how dangerous chemicals used to be 30-40 years ago. For those of us who used to work in commerce and industry in the 70s and 80s and looking back it is unbelievable what we were asked to use and how lax the precautions were, but things are generally very different now. Responsible physicians and clinicians have very strict rules about these things.

So what do you think? Should we go further and ban all antiobiotics on human beings - or all chemicals full stop? Or have things gone too far so that you find yourself with few defences against the pests and diseases which can decimate our lives most years?

With apologies to Captain Carrot!

Hi Colin,

So what do you think? Should we go further and ban all antiobiotics on human beings - or all chemicals full stop? Or have things gone too far so that you find yourself with few defences against the pests and diseases which can decimate our lives most years?

I would suggest that there is a great difference between fluffing and tearing ones' fundemental orafice!
JB.

There is obviously a place for antibiotics - for the treatment of bacterial infections. The issue came up where the cause of specific infections were not investigated and antibiotics were being prescribed for viruses, which of course there are anti-virals for if the condition warrants (ie: HIV) Both bacteria and viruses can mutate so a lot of treatments are ineffective where they either won't work at all or only relieve the symptoms not the actual cause. This is a reason we don't want to give out medications too readily as exposing these viruses with a tendancy to mutate to these medications mean they can quickly come up with defences to these and then there is the monetary investment to come up with a new drug to treat a new strain of an old bug. (Simply developing a mucous covering will stop absorbtion of the meds and it doesn't take many generations of these bugs to develop something like this and when you consider how quickly they reproduce you are looking at several generations an hour).

Of course if you are a reasonably fit adult then your own immune system will fight of most infections whether viral or bacterial just not as quickly and because it remembers if you are unfortunate enough to get the same bug again it will spring into action much quicker and you may not even get any symptoms or be aware you have been infected.

If you are young, old, immuniosuppressed, malnutritioned or already have another infection on board then there is indeed a place for antibiotics. Or if the bacteria has become resistant - MRSA being an example. And for the record you don't just catch MRSA in hospital it is passed by contact and only becomes symptomatic if you are an at risk group or need invasive treatment which is why you are now routinely swabbed pre-operatively as you could already be carrying it.

Westi

Of course if you are a reasonably fit plant then your own immune system will fight of most infections whether viral or bacterial just not as quickly and because it remembers if you are unfortunate enough to get the same bug again it will spring into action much quicker and you may not even get any symptoms or be aware you have been infected.

If you are a young plant, or old, immuniosuppressed, malnutritioned or already have another infection on board then there is indeed a place for pesticides. Or if the bacteria/virus has become resistant - Blight being an example. And for the record you don't just catch blight in the ground it is passed by aerial means and only becomes symptomatic if you are an at risk group.

Apologies Westi.

many of the resistent and dangerous bugs we now have sprang from the innapropriate use of antibiotics in factory farming pigs chickens etc.
Cold pressed garlic and manuka honey are very good natural anti viral and anti bacterials.

Hello Everyone. This is one of my bugbears! Westie is spot on.
In my teens, from the mid sixties onwards, I suffered badly with asthma, which was always accompanied by bronchitis. The GP's doled out antibiotics like smarties. As soon as I got a cold...which was often....I had to visit the surgery and was prescribed antibiotics, even if the bronchitis had not reared it's ugly head. They said it would ward it off. We didn't know any better then and did as we were told, accepting the Doctors knew best. So, I was taking antibiotics most months of the year.

The upshot is...in my opinion...all these antibiotics messed up my immune system and I got every infection going, for many years... the initial infection cleared up, only to be replaced by another, often worse than the original one. In my twenties I refused to take antibiotics at all and let my immune system deal with anything which attacked it and over the years this has worked fine. Fortunately, I grew out the asthma and I get very few chest infections these days and certainly nowhere near as bad as I got them when I was younger. (I'm 59 this year)
When I first joined my present GP's panel 20 years ago, he was amazed when I refused some antibiotics for a mild chest infection...I had gone for something entirely unconnected. I told him my theory and he agreed with me.

Since those days, he has only insisted I take them on the occasions I have had a water infection, as I once refused antibiotics for it and ended up with a kidney infection, which wasn't very pleasant!

I can count on one hand, the times I have used antibiotics in the past 20 years and I think my immune system is pretty good now, as I rarely even get colds these days. If I think a cold is imminent, I inhale good old steam and it may be coincidence or not but the cold rarely develops beyond the runny nose stage.

In my experience, I was seriously over prescribed antibiotics. They only work on bacteria so taking them for a viral cold to "ward off" bronchitis was ridiculous.

I would suggest that there is a great difference between fluffing and tearing ones' fundemental orifice!

JB, you were extremely polite there!

Hi NB,

Cold pressed garlic and manuka honey are very good natural anti viral and anti bacterials.

I appreciate that you, as a retired nurse, should know all about medical matters but the normal person doesn't know so goes to a doctor
for a consultation. If you do not follow the course of treatment that he/she, in their wisdom, prescribes for you then it would be an utter waste of their time and your own.
Years ago I had a friend who was a fervent organic vegetarian and it was before the array of food that is available today and in order to gather the correct amount of nutrition she and her friend used to pop vitamin tablets like smarties. They were forever complaining about doctors and would self medicate and never consult a doctor. Both failed to see the harm that they were doing to themselves and one died at 42 and the other at 46.
Now I am not suggesting that what I have outlined is nonsense but what I am saying is that with the normal person it is dangerous to self prescribe because they do not know what they are suffering from.
That is what doctors are for.
When it comes to the plant world various chemicals are vital and today there is a very strict regime to which they are applied and without them the world would end up with mass starvation.
I try very hard not to use any chemicals but there is the need for them every now and then so I will never rule out the use of chemicals in agriculture and horticulture. Certainly with gardens and allotments it is possible to protect your crops but when it is a commercial the scale of growing prohibits these methods.
There are now slug pellets that do not harm anything but slugs and snails and I make use of these. On the other hand if I use Nicotine then when I am to spray it is when the bees have gone to bed and the target is covered with fleece so doesn't affect anything else.
JB.

I totally agree JB but that is the conundrum - we have a choice we either follow the advice given or we choose to reject it and do our own thing. One of the most important things to aid us with making choice in my opinion is we can now research our options so much more easily so it might still be a bad choice but an informed one! The glory of being human I suppose.

Natures Babe I also agree - how many antibiotics have we consumed without being aware? I think the majority of us on the forum are of an age when we were exposed to these 'improvements' in our food industry but fortunately there is greater awareness for the next generation; if we can keep them away from the golden arches that is!

Colin I've seen many an ailing plant in hospitals - does that count?

Westi

Hi Westi,
Sadly to err is to be human.
I also agree with NB that the use of antibiotics as part of the feeding programme of certain animals should be outlawed. If a pig is unwell and a vet, and I stress a vet, should be allowed to treat and animal with an antibiotic and there should be a restriction on how many treatments any animal can receive during its lifespan and remain in the food chain.
It should not be left to the producer to prescribe any medicines. I would go further and say that producers should not have the right to hold any medicine that is able to have any effect on the end user and that means all of us meat eaters.
When it comes to plants on a commercial scale then there are some very stringent rules in place and if a chemical is applied not in accordance with any integrated pest management programme the crop will not be accepted by any supermarket. Although people moan about supermarkets they are the leaders in integrated pest management schemes and spray something just one day late and they will not accept the crop so producers very strictly adhere to the programmes or face very heavy losses to their income. If they are found to have falsified anything along the way then they lose their rights and would never be used by the supermarket again with the likelihood of never supplying any other supermarket either.
So to me the use of chemicals is essential to provide our food and with all the rules in place our food is exceedingly safe whatever those who are against the use of chemicals say.
JB.

I can recall one period when I was seriously ill in hospital and if I hadn't been given antibiotics I would almost certainly have been dead now, so I rest my case.

However, I can accept there may be certain incidents where, for milder ailments, they may be being over prescribed. Wherever possible I think it's far better to live and eat heathily so that you immune system is better primed to fight whatever infections you pick up.

Unfortunately there's no way of knowing what antibiotics have been given to animals in the food chain, so unless you're a vegetarian, you end up taking pot luck in terms of any residual effect that will have on you. Perhaps that's a good argument to reducing the amount of meat or poultry the average person takes in their diet.

ban on antibiotics - I think not and for a very good personal reason.

I have Lupus (SLE) which in basic terms means my immune system is OVER active. So if I get an infection my immune system goes bonkers and attacks me.....best case scenario if feeling dreadful, extreem fatigue, severe arthritis like pain....worse case my kidneys are attacked. If that happens again its very likely I have renal failure...dialysis, transplant!

So I take a raft of medications including immunisuppresants. Meaning I am more susceptible to infection and I can't fight them off, the Lupus can still take over if the infection takes over.

I also had a burst appendix and spent the whole of christmas in hospital with peritonitis. Without the antibiotics and quick surgery I would have been dead.

Antibiotics are life and death to me....not just losing life, but enabling me to live my life. Allowing me to work, be a Mum and grow my veg without having to rely on hubby.

Ironically - I've always been an advocate of herbal/traditional remidies hence husband spending the day with half a clove of garlic strapped to his wrist after a bee sting (worked a treat by they way).

I also very very rarely had to take antibiotics when I was younger.

Rant over
xxx

What an odd question. How can you ban chemicals? Water is a chemical, oxygen is a chemical, everything is a chemical or mixture thereof.

Antibiotics? they may well be overused and in Germany where my brother lives they are only prescribed in hospitals but they save lives.....millions of lives.

What on earth prompted such a question???

Hi Trixie,
Not heard of the clove method for a bee sting but here is our method of dealing with Bee and Wasp stings:

Bee for Bicarbonate Of Soda
Wasp for Winegar (Vinegar)

Oh dear I'm self medicating!!

JB.

solway cropper wrote:What an odd question. What on earth prompted such a question???

Unless I am very much mistaken, Colin's post was very much tongue in cheek, with reference to this thread

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