Kitchen Garden Forum

Hello Johnboy, Allan and everyone,

Johnboy, at no time did I mention MD in my contribution. I was simply passing comment that any insistence on formal Qualifications would bar many of the most informative presenters such as Fred Dibnah.

Allan thanks for reminding me of Percy Thrower (I hang my head in shame in not remembering his name) but I did enjoy those days of GW. Another favourite of mine was a gardener called (I think) Max Abrahams who used to appear on the local HTV news and used to garden in the Bristol area. Perhaps others will remember him.

In further defence of presenters without formal qualifications, I would recommend my local West Country nature film maker Johnny Kingdom who has a series starting on BBC 2 tonight. Johnny has great enthusiasm and practical knowledge of Exmoor and I will expect this series to show this.

All the best

Barney

Hi Barney,
My apologies for that. Rereading your posting to a great degree I agree with you.
Pieces of paper mean nothing but what does mean a lot is that that piece of paper means that you have at least have a complete understanding of the subject whether you can apply it or not.
I can assure you that if you hold a HNC Hort or HND Hort or a BSc Hort it means that you are worth the money you are paid. You simply cannot have either of these three qualifications without having the practical experience. Probably the best qualification was through the Local Authority Apprentice scheme and anybody worth their sort ended up with an HNC Hort and many went on to University.
Sadly I do not think these apprenticeships are available today. I doubt even if many councils even have their own nurseries any more.
JB.

If I were an employer I would not employ anybody who came to me claiming he already knows it all. That is a dead brain. I would look for a good grounding in basic skills, the 3 r's,etc. enthusiasm hunger for knowledge and adaptability. All the jobs I have ever been in meant learning new technology which by the time I left was quite different from what prevailed when I started that job, much of it unknown when I ended my formal education. In my 18 years on the 'new job' I have learnt a lot of new skills too and also many techniques specifically relevant to present circumstances, by no means all in any textbook or other publication. Horticulture changes these days, we must change too but also draw on the riches of the past.
Allan

Hello Johnboy and Allan

I agree with both of your recent postings. However, from my own experience things have dramatically changed regarding qualifications. I do not know about horticulture HNCs, but I have been in Engineering in one form or another all my life. I also taught part time Agricultural Mechanics City & Guilds for several years during the 80s and was involved with the training of apprentices in Industry at this time. I had completed City&Guilds and HNC, but in those days if students were not up to standard they did not pass. To be accurate they failed, a word that modern students have never come in contact with. After leaving Industry I worked at a highly regarded (with Beacon Awards) College. I was appalled; the standards were none existing, all students passed. The pass rates proudly proclaimed by these colleges of 98.6% etc. are achieved by HNC courses with no examinations, only course work. Many of the City & Guilds exams were multi choice where common sense would eliminate all but two of the options therefore students had a 50% chance of guessing the correct one, no wonder they all passed.
To be frank, I taught Modern Apprentice Electricians who I wouldn’t trust wiring a ‘Chicken Run’ leave alone a distribution board.

Years ago if someone had passed either an ONC/HNC or their City&Guilds at Craft, Mechanics or Technician level, you were confident in their competence and level of skill and understanding. Now it is a complete joke, as long as they complete a course they all pass, which is totally unfair on the better students and the ones of past years when if students were not up to standard they failed. As for NVQs (Not Very Qualified) and Skillcards, they are all a farce when compared to the old standards. Needless to say I left Education and returned to Industry.

All the Best

Barney

Dear Allan, if you were an employer i think i would be your ideal man, as i have all your requirements in abundance.
I wonder how the employer~employee relationship would develop.

Kind regards Old Herbaceous.

Theres no fool like an old fool.

Barney;
Having seen the state of the CV's submitted to my carpenter husband from prospective apprentices, I'm forced to agree with your assessment of the current examinations, which I suspect is endemic throughout many professions. My husband did a full apprenticeship and has C&G qualifications, and it infuriates him that todays students can achieve the same qualifications at such a low standard.

Considering most of the CV's we see are computerised, the standard of spelling, grammar etc is appalling; they obviously do not know how to use a spellcheck, and I always wonder what their parents are doing, letting them send out such awfulness, it is quite sad.

However, when it comes to television programmes, the presenters need to be able to communicate enthusiasm and knowledge in order to inform with authority. I neither particularly like or dislike MD, but I think he comes across as an enthusistic gardener, who 'does' his own veg garden. On that basis I would listen to his recommendations for things he has actually grown in the same way I am interested in forum members opinions; I want to learn from people who have actually done or grown what they are recommending. Perhaps I have low standards, but I don't expect an 'expert' opinion on GW!!

I'm sorry I have to disagree on naming Monty for experienced judgement. I don't watch him at all regularly but it is sad when he rcommends sowing peas direct into the soil when most experienced gardeners will have opted for various methods of sowing them seperately then planting out to avoid the appalling losses from mice and birds that one gets from direct sowing. If you think about it he cannot possibly afford the time for any great practical experience these days with his obligations as a celebrity, writing articles, filming, travel to the gardens, appearances at the major shows and now I believe running his own new establishment.
Allan

Although I have given my views on the standards of modern qualifications, I have deliberately not given my opinion on the suitability of Monty Don as a presenter of Gardeners’ World since I am not clear on the criteria to judge him by. He may not have the background of some previous presenters but he could be inspiring a new audience to take up gardening, I know my wife likes him and she did help me cut a few cabbages yesterday!

Surely MD is presenting to audiences who wish to learn the basics and we are all past that stage. I’m quite sure if any other highly experienced gardeners were to present the basics they may all have differing views on how things should be done.

I do enjoy the element when a GW presenter visits an experienced grower to see their methods but unfortunately this always seems to involve visiting ornamental growers. I believe the programme would be greatly improved, for the experienced vegetable gardener, if Monty Don also visited commercial Market Gardeners to see and interview them about their methods. I remember him visiting Allotments (in Birmingham, I think) and I found this informative and entertaining.

Barney

Hi Barney,
Sounds as though I should have gone to Birmingham Allotments and not Birmingham University as I feel sure I would have learned oh so much more there!
JB.

i actually watched gw on friday ( and the exmoor program which i didnt know was on till mentioned here, thanks ) if we accept that gw is a prime time program on a main channel aimed at a mass (ie non expert audience) it probably does what it sets out to do, ie entertain the masses and keep the viewing figures up.

Richard, I agree with you entirely.

I have only ever watched Gardeners' World as 'entertainment'.

And I totally agree with Allan, in that if you ever profess to 'know it all' you've lost the plot. What I DON'T know is the excitement that will keep me going till the day I die....

In the sense that I sell some of my produce I am a commercial market gardener. Monty and the hangers-on could come anytime and help with the weeding and other jobs prior to filming, but I don't see them getting one of their mobile studio down our narrow unmade lane. We are the sort of producer that is necessary for 'farmers markets' who are always in need for more. It may not be generally realised how much work is entailed on and off site that is essential but not in itself growing the crops. Nowadays most of my seed sowing is done 20 miles from the farm, to say nothing of packaging, accounts, repairs,seed orders, research and planning.
Allan