The advantages of mulch on a vegetable garden.

[Johnboy]

Hi NB,
I have been growing on my own account for almost as long as you have been alive and I've been through Organic and I have also been through the French "Total Return" System. The only difference between myself and yourself that I have grown both organically and the TRS side by side for five years as a comparison and in the end I then after the fourth year I grew conventionally to compare all three and after the fifth year I discarded both Orcanics and the TRS and became Pragmatic. I had seven hungry mouths to feed and growing adding a little man made fertilzer made the difference.
If you could find me a photograph of that same bed brim full with plants of value I might begin to think that the person who perpetrated that awful mess is actually a serious gardener and not somebody who simple likes to play with soil.
BTW if you are growing Cabbages that are in excess of 36" that have not got a really large head in a garden then you are growing the wrong varieties. This means that the most you could reasonably grow are three cabbages in a 12'x4' bed with a few other things around the margins.
I suggest you should try pulling the other leg!
JB.

[oldherbaceous]

Gosh Johnboy, i know, you know a lot about gardening, but for you to know how big peoples vegetables are and how big they need to grow them is truly amazing.

[Nature's Babe]

Thank you OH,
Johnboy, I am not pulling your leg. What awful mess are you referring to ? If you read this thread you would realise I told Alan that I do not own a camera at the moment as my last one was stolen, I don't have a mobile phone either, I am not unhappy about that and perhaps I might be lucky next birthday or christmas. So I measured them at their widest point, if you choose not to believe me fine, that is your perogative, but i would not insult you in that way.
They are red cabbage and as I have never grown them before the size surprised me too, I chose red because someone said the cabbage white butterfly's don't like them, I also planted some red kale which we have had several pickings from and is doing very well. The mange tout after five pickings is still very productive with plenty of new flowers coming, marrows and cucumbers are growing well too, and a couple of lucky dip self seeded tomatoes, the rest are in the greenhouse. More rain again today but set to improve this weekend.

[Johnboy]

Hi OH,
It's all quite simple really.

Even the cabbages which apparently do not have a symbiotic relationship with mycelium are now in excess of three feet accross and are hearting up.

JB.

[alan refail]

Morning NB

Can I proffer a tip about cabbage growing, which you may find useful in the future? Cabbages tend to grow to fill the space available; i.e. the further apart you plant them, the more leaf they will put on and the slower they will be to head up. I am just finishing the cabbages I sowed at the end of February - Précoce de Louviers and Baccalan de Rennes. These were planted out in a block little more than 12-14 inches apart (roughly the length of my trowel); the leaves grew to touch the nearest plants and then stopped; at that point they headed up to nice pointy heads.

For you to plant red cabbage a metre apart is a bit of a waste of space. What variety was it, by the way?

Hope this helps

Alan

[oldherbaceous]

Morning Alan, i think we all know Nature's babe prefers not to grow in blocks or rows, and prefers to inter-plant, whether we agree with that technique or not, matters very little.

Of course i could be wrong.

[alan refail]

Morning Alan, i think we all know Nature's babe prefers not to grow in blocks or rows, and prefers to inter-plant, whether we agree with that technique or not, matters very little.

Of course i could be wrong.

I didn't think of that

In that case my comments apply even more. Plant a cabbage singly and it will grow and grow.

[oldherbaceous]

Maybe Medwyn Williams, better be on his guard.

[alan refail]

Hi NB,

If you could find me a photograph of that same bed brim full with plants of value I might begin to think that the person who perpetrated that awful mess is actually a serious gardener and not somebody who simple likes to play with soil.

JB.

Morning Johnboy

I have found this other set of photographs of synergistic beds. Might help to fill in the visual gaps.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pjchmiel/3955161984/

Alan

[Nature's Babe]

OH very observant of you, you are right, and I'll bet you know why too. I do not block plant generally, except sweetcorn which needs block planting however I did group in two's and threes, twelve to fourteen inches apart, so next year I will place them next to something that will hedge in them in a bit, thank you for that tip. Though one large leaf did hit a cane supporting a cucumber, and that grew the same size- but straight up.
Alan,I won't deny you your fun, very subtle, showing a link showing diseased plants - but we are straying from the subject of this thread, can we get back to my point about the soil food web link ? Which none of you have mentioned, did you read it? When this is in balance it favours healthy plants, when it is not disease can thrive, particularly when there is soil compaction and anaerobic conditions. At the moment there is no disease on any of the plants in those beds, and that includes runner beans, marrows cucumbers, french beans, tomatoes, tomatillos, cabbage, kale, snap peas, leeks, courgettes, lettuce and some herbs. Regarding your nipplewort problem, again check out the soil foodweb link for conditions where weeds thrive.

[alan refail]

Alan,I won't deny you your fun, very subtle, showing a link showing diseased plants

It took me a while to work out what you were referring to! Actually, as I pointed out quite clearly, it was a pictorial link showing crops in synergistic beds. Did you look at all the other pictures?

can we get back to my point about the soil food web link ? Which none of you have mentioned, did you read it?

I can assure you that I did try. But it so incredibly long and I have to admit that after a few scrolls down my brain rebelled and I had to stop. It looks all good stuff, but what is really needed is a synopsis in simpler language. Any chance?

[Nature's Babe]

I agree it is hard to get to grips with Alan, probably because she is a professor and we are not, but my intuition tells me it fits with synergy and I am re- reading and gleaning a little more each time, because I want to learn more. Maybe others would like to take a small chunk each Would you choose a small chunk to interpret, as you say it looks worth the effort. I will take the bit about bacteria and fungi being in balance and how to feed the soil to achieve that. I might enlist someone elses help if they are interested. It also fits with my belief that as humans allthough we are highly developed compared with some, we are still interdependent with the rest of life, we have explored what is on and above earth but are still quite ignorant of what goes on under our feet, the system that gave rise to us all, which we depend on.
I will go back and look at the rest of your last link,I didn't realise there was more, sorry, and thanks for the tip how to contain the cabbages, I don't want them that size ! I will have to figure out what to plant round them to contain them.
Perhaps Johnboy might be kind enough to take the bit that refers to trees? You might be interested in taking the bit that refers to conditions that favour weeds, think nipplewort!

[Johnboy]

Hi NB,
Take a typical garden raised bed of 12ft x 4ft then have 4 Cabbages that are 3ft across which fill 2/3rds of the bed and you have enough room for a row of Carrots. It doesn't really matter how you plant them they will take up the same amount of room. What you omitted to tell us was that they were something that you had not grown before and didn't realise that they would be that big. The way I read your posting you were putting the largeness of the Cabbages down to your wonderful method of growing. I have seen Large Red Marner growing to that size and must warn you that they failed to heart-up at all. Whatever is said very large cabbages are not the best thing to grow in an area where, to say the least, space is at a premium!
Using the same amount of compost and planting in a methodical fashion will give you a far higher yield from a given area because inter-cropping can be used with may smaller quick growing plants such as Lettuces and you can grow early Carrots and plant out such cabbages as Greyhound between the rows of Carrots and pulling the Carrots that will eventually crowd the Cabbages. You use masses of mulch on the surface and mine is dug-in under the surface where it is readily available to supply nutrition to my plants. Over the years I have observed that I get a larger crop from a given area because I too am observant and I haven't got a nursing qualification.
I appreciate that you use a particular method of growing but really you have to accept that it is each to their own and think that there is no need to keep telling us with almost every one of your postings the need for mulch and your method of growing. I think by now we have got the message!
JB.

[Nature's Babe]

Luckily these appear to be hearting up Johnboy, not the variety you mention but I mislaid the packet after planting so can't tell you what they were, with caring for mum I don't have the time to record things and be as organised as you guys are. Living in a drought prone area mulching is very important to me though, and I notice the worms come right up to the surface aerating the soil, as you know anaerobic conditions encourage disease, it also avoids a hard crust which my clay soil woud be prone to in drought,and reduces and makes weeding easier so please bear with me if I mention mulching as I bear with you when you guys often mention digging, double digging incorporating manure etc, which suits you and your garden. like you say it is personal choice and I would add each garden and gardener is different. Also the title of this thread is relevant, it is about the advantages of a mulch on a vegetable garden I feel certain if we can accept our different methods that we can learn much from one another to our mutual benefit. There is more than one way to cook a goose.

[Tony Hague]

I have always been one for digging in my compost, but ... I have heavy clay at the allotment so to improve the chances of growing carrots I planned to dig into the bed all the spent tomato and pepper compost from the greenhouse. Of course, time being what it is I got as far as dumping a mound of compost on top of the bed, where it sat for the winter. I was really quite surprised by how improved the soil was by spring. I did have a lot of moles that year to help though . They were less popular later on when they insisted on repeatedly digging up said carrots though !