GM Potato Blight trials to go ahead.

[Johnboy]

Now who's being ridiculous John Walker.
Your quote referring to GM: clearly demonstrates what a failing and old technology this is.
Now this is strange because the technology you and your cronies recommend is as old as time itself and is about to be usurped.
One of the reasons that the trial has been held up for several years is the antics of people like yourself and the Soil Association making as much trouble against GM as they possibly can and spreading all manner of scare story along the way. Your comment is not only two faced but entirely blinkered to the facts.
The fact is that GM has those who govern organics running scared and totally witless. You are so scared that GM trial is going to prove what a pack of charlatans you really are!
This has nothing to do with organic growing whatsoever it is money and power that is at stake.
I wonder just how much money the SA have received in government handouts in the last ten years. Organics generally have taken many more millions out of the public purse over the years than GM.
JB.

[Colin Miles]

I spoke to the gardener at the National Botanic Garden of Wales yesterday asking him how his Sarpo trials had gone last year. These were prinicipally to test frost resistance as there had been some evidence of this the previous year. Unfortunately they didn't any frosts to test them. I also talked about blight resistance and my experience and he commented that it was more the fact that the tubers were blight resistant rather than the foliage that was important.

GM would certainly seem to me to be the way forward. And the whole 'Organic' question of 'do you use chemicals?' is such a daft one. Yes - I use tap water is my first thought amongst many others.

[John Walker]

My only comment at this point is to ask that the forum moderators do their job.

I appreciate that this is a complex yet fascinating and indeed stretching topic which arouses strong feelings and reactions in us all, but I humbly suggest that we all conduct ourselves with at least a semblance of civility.

A number of people appear to be following this thread, perhaps trying to learn a bit more about the subject as well as the ongoing debate around it. More of those interested folk might feel inclined to participate if perhaps they weren't so wary of being shouted down and subjected to personal insults for expressing a view or citing information and opinion from elsewhere.

[Shallot Man]

I like the way this topic is warming up.

[SoilAssociation]

Alan – Our arguments against GM are not focused solely on its expense (though we do think it’s outrageous to place such a burden on the taxpayer in the name of a failing technology). The Soil Association believes that the use of GM has no place in the production of safe and healthy food. Organic farming systems have been designed to produce food with care for human health, the environment and animal welfare. The use of genetically engineered crops is not compatible with this aim.

Our views on GM are shared by many others. As the Government’s recently published food security consultation background documents state, we should look to the International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development (IAASTD). The largest global project of its type included 400 scientists and has been approved by over 60 countries. The report concludes that GM crops offer no panacea to future food needs and instead backed organic agriculture and similar 'agro-ecological' approaches to tackle food insecurity.

Regarding potato blight, we would argue that a strong, healthy crop grown in biologically active soil will be better able to resist blight and we would encourage all growers to focus on best practice. For more technical information, the BPC have extensive information on blight control available on their website: http://www.potato.org.uk/department/kno ... e_transfer

[Cider Boys]

Welcome to the discussion SoilAssociation

You have given a link to a most respected site regarding potato growing, one that I have followed for several years, it also advises to spray against blight infection in a timely manner something that I try to do. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it has been my understanding that the SA say that spraying with chemicals is against ‘organic’ practice in which case I would suggest there is no such thing as an ‘organic’ potato since in past years ‘Organic’ growers have certainly reached for the sprayer when it has suited them.

Of course although I grow by potatoes (along with other crops) as organically as practicable, I dare not describe them as organic since your association has hijacked the word.

Barney

[alan refail]

Soil Association

Thanks for the clarification. I made the point I did because I had expected to see substantiated objections from the SA on grounds other than cost.

I think the main problem with this discussion is that the contributors, myself included, know very little about the actual techniques of genetic engineering and are more prone to state and restate unsupported "mantras". For example, what evidence do you have that genetic engineering is "a failing technology"?

For myself I am more open-minded on GM than I used to be, largely due to doing a lot of reading on genetics over the long winter months. I have tried to find a balanced discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of the technology, but all I can find on the internet are diametrically opposed positions, usually based on little or no fact, as in this present discussion. I wonder whether anyone actually read the link I included in an earlier post?

The Sainsbury Laboratory's release deserves to be read...

http://www.tsl.ac.uk/lateblightqa.html

I believe that most of the feeling against genetic engineering is based on the belief that it is "unnatural" to transfer genes from, say, animals to plants - and it probably is. What seems to be going on here is not "transgenic" genetic engineering, but the transference of genetic material from one species of potato to another species.

John Walker made a valid point this morning when he wrote:

A number of people appear to be following this thread, perhaps trying to learn a bit more about the subject as well as the ongoing debate around it. More of those interested folk might feel inclined to participate if perhaps they weren't so wary of being shouted down and subjected to personal insults for expressing a view or citing information and opinion from elsewhere.

Johnboy and Barney (Cider Boys)

Re the above comments, may I respectfully suggest that your use of emotive language to attack organic gardeners/organic organisations/the Soil Association actually detracts from the credibility of your support for the GM potato trials? Sorry to sound schoolteacherish, but old habits die hard, even after twenty (contented) years away from the classroom.

I would echo what John suggested:

"I humbly suggest that we all conduct ourselves with at least a semblance of civility."

[Cider Boys]

I do not wish to attack anyone, I consider myself a peaceful warrior.
I fully support organic growing methods, but NOT those of the Soil Association because I consider them hypocritical.

It is a great pity that this GM trial has started so late due to all the problems and expenses associated with security because some hell bent on taking unlawful action against a legal activity.

Barney

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
Your point is taken but I wish to point out that so far the only person who has grown Sarpo Mira and surprise, surprise the only person to find them scrumptious is John Walker. Nobody was actually making anything other than a legitimate comment on Sarpo Mira. Because this upset John Walker he then pulled up his heavy artillery The Soil Association and quotes them as though we should believe their every word when in truth I never believe a word they say or publish. I feel exactly the same as Barney as regards the SA they are not only dogmatic in their approach they are very blinkered and only ever believe their own words.
I have, like you, been struggling for several years to come to grips with Genetic engineering and to a degree I am beginning to understand more and more and enough to say that what is preached by the SA at every conceivable opportunity is simply not true. It is their interest that GM should fail and by not telling the truth to the run-up to the large debate a few years back they managed to sway public opinion, with the help of the printed media to stir up a great hatred of GM. GM has a great amount to offer.
At that time I said that their gerrymandering will ultimate be their downfall and they are very scared that this GM trial on resistance to blight will prove a great success which would sadly lessen the value of the work done by the Savari Trust which has been considerable over the years.
To me, to isolate the blight resistant genes found in a naturally occurring potato/potatoes and modify another Potato to carry these new resistant strains is not the heinous crime that the Soil Association would have you believe and in fact could be one of the great GM achievements. It would help every gardener/producer whatever his persuasion.
JB.

[alan refail]

Regarding potato blight, we would argue that a strong, healthy crop grown in biologically active soil will be better able to resist blight and we would encourage all growers to focus on best practice.

That is a sweeping statement; could you point us in the direction of trials/research which lead to this conclusion? I garden 100% organically, do not spray and usually avoid blight by planting as early as I dare and harvesting before the main blight season. Mind you, I am only growing for two people and live in a mild area of Wales.
I see no reason why genetically modified blight-resistant potatoes could not be grown according to organic methods; unless, of course, you say that GM is incompatible with organic methods. In which case one might ask you why? What is your understanding of genetic modification, both transgenic and cisgenic?

[SoilAssociation]

Hello - Interesting reading your comments. I've been away from the office for most of today so haven’t had a chance to reply before. Our arguments against GM are founded on extensive research. In addition to the International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development (IAASTD) consultation, the scientific credibility of the GM industry has been badly damaged by a number of reports – some of which you will find on our website:
http://www.soilassociation.org/Whyorgan ... fault.aspx
I hope this clarifies our position.

[Cider Boys]

Perhaps in the interest of impartiality we should seek a qualified supporter of GM to present the other side of the 'scientific' argument.

Barney

[oldherbaceous]

Does anyone know, if there actually is a totally blight resistant potato wild or other wise, to take the genes from. Or would they just be looking at blight resistant genes.

If it's the latter, surely we won't be gaining much as blight is always changing itself.

Or am i missing something?

[alan refail]

Morning OH

I don't think there are species which are immune to blight, but some wild species have high resistance. Here's the relevant section from the Sainsbury Laboatories text:

What genes have been used to create the GM potatoes?

A: Two genes that give potatoes resistance against the pathogen have been isolated from wild South American potato species. The wild South American species are not edible potatoes and are not suitable for cultivation in Europe or elsewhere. In addition to well characterised laboratory races, we also know that one of the genes is effective against the race of Phytophthora infestans that was prevalent in the recent serious UK epidemic years of 2007 and 2008 (known colloquially as 'superblight' or Blue 13).

[alan refail]

Regarding potato blight, we would argue that a strong, healthy crop grown in biologically active soil will be better able to resist blight and we would encourage all growers to focus on best practice.

That is a sweeping statement; could you point us in the direction of trials/research which lead to this conclusion? I garden 100% organically, do not spray and usually avoid blight by planting as early as I dare and harvesting before the main blight season. Mind you, I am only growing for two people and live in a mild area of Wales.
I see no reason why genetically modified blight-resistant potatoes could not be grown according to organic methods; unless, of course, you say that GM is incompatible with organic methods. In which case one might ask you why? What is your understanding of genetic modification, both transgenic and cisgenic?

Dear Soil Association

I make no apology for repeating my previous post.

Your reply unfortunately totally omitted to answer either of the questions I posed:

The link you provided threw up no research to support your contention that "a strong, healthy crop grown in biologically active soil will be better able to resist blight". So at the moment this remains nothing more than a "belief".

I also asked "What is your understanding of genetic modification, both transgenic and cisgenic?" Does your silence on this mean that you don't know, or care?

I should say at this point that I have always been suspicious of (and opposed to) significant aspects of genetically modified organisms in food especially the social/agricultural effects of "Monsanto-type" GM crops. The reports on your website I agreed with in large part - in fact I had read a couple of them some time ago. However, suggestions that GM is a failing/dangerous technology are misguided and misleading (witness the "Frankenfoods" trumpeting of the British press!) Rather akin to suggesting that automotive engineering was an evil technology because it produced the Austin Allegro (if you are old enough to remember that).

Much of the argument against GM has been on the grounds that it is controlled by multinational chemical companies - and I fully share that concern.
Now we have a clearly defined programme (blight resistance in potatoes) funded by public money. Maybe this is an example of the "people's GM" which Prof Tim Lang (President of Garden Organic) has declared himself not opposed to. Strange, then, that the Soil Association's objection is now based on the fact that public money is funding the research and trials.

Apologies for going on at such length, but I think there is a need for a more reasoned approach to GM than your blanket condemnation offers.


Just a reminder: I have asked two questions:

The link you provided threw up no research to support your contention that "a strong, healthy crop grown in biologically active soil will be better able to resist blight". So at the moment this remains nothing more than a "belief".

I also asked "What is your understanding of genetic modification, both transgenic and cisgenic?" Does your silence on this mean that you don't know, or care?