Kitchen Garden Forum

Beryl wrote:Nothing anyone has said has convinced me it is right to sell produce from an allotment for personal gain or profit.
As John said if you sign an agreement you should stick by it or seek to change it through the proper channels.
The reasons these days why people take up allotments is varied and as I said before the sale to friends and family to cover expenses I have no objection to but when it comes to growing for the intention to make profit I take exception. If you want to do that the there are other ways.
I indeed have a large surplus easch year of which I either give away or use to make chutney and jams for charity. Nothing is wasted, however, I grow it and it's mine to do with as I choose even if I choose to compost. I can honestly say in all my years of gardening I have never ever sold anything for my own personal gain.
When does growing and selling for profit from an allotment become a business? and I wonder what would the tax man think about it.

Beryl.

If you can afford to give so much away then you are blessed indeed in these hard times.
And probably in a minority.

Life has changed radically since 1950. It takes more than fruit and vegetables to feed and care for a family in 2011.

Those allotment rules were made in and for post war Britain when food was still rationed; the era I grew up in and we were still "digging for victory". The allotment movement was a vital part of post-war recovery.

So it is surely time the rules were updated to reflect this change.

And fair play, as they say here in Ireland, to those who choose to work hard to grow etc maybe rather than apply for public money.
Or to give their children more than basics.

The difference between what you call "profit" and "charity" is a very narrow and doubtful one. We sell for profit and we choose to give that profit away. It is still growing for profit. Money is changing hands. If you are legalistic of course...

I don't really understand your logic Marigold. I think we will have to agree to differ on this one. I give the jams and chutney to Charity and they are the ones that sell it - not me. And I do appreciate it costs far more to feed a family these days which is why I give away my surplus mostly to my neighbours who are pensioners. I am very well fed from my allotment and can afford to. The allotment is my hobby and a social thing and I am fortunate it produces so much.

Beryl.

Just thinking about this topic laterally, how large does an allotment need to be in order for it to be used "only for the production of fruit, vegetables and flowers for domestic consumption by himself and his family"? Our allotment plots are rented our in measurements of 20 poles(Half plot) and 40 poles( Quarter acre). My plot is 80 poles but I could provide for my wife and myself with 20 poles. Nevertheless the Council were prepared to let me have a double plot and gladly accepted the £60 annual rent rather than leaving a plot and a half vacant, knowing that I sell the produce.

Samuel

Good grief!
My understanding was that, nationaly, the standard size full allotment was ten rod/pole/perch.

One rod, pole, or perch being thirty square yards.

So an allotment would be roughly ten by thirty yards.

How big is your site there?
How many of "your" fullsize plots does it have?


BTW biggest my council will now let is five rod, two & a half is common and often folk ask for smaller.

I was a bit gob smacked to Peter. The most our council will let now is 5 rods. It's only us oldies that are allowed too keep what we have.

Where is this huge demand for plots? 400 waiting here.

Beryl.

Our basic half plot is 5 perch. Nobody is allowed more than 20 perch these days on our site.

Our allotment plot is about 41/2 acres made up into 15 allotments of 40 poles but some are let as half plots and some as double plots. There is one 40 pole plot vacant at present.

At the Council meeting last night it was decided, and minuted, to allow the `status quo` to apply. QED

Samuel

Beryl wrote:I don't really understand your logic Marigold. I think we will have to agree to differ on this one. I give the jams and chutney to Charity and they are the ones that sell it - not me. And I do appreciate it costs far more to feed a family these days which is why I give away my surplus mostly to my neighbours who are pensioners. I am very well fed from my allotment and can afford to. The allotment is my hobby and a social thing and I am fortunate it produces so much.

Beryl.

Thank you for this elucidation, and you are truly blessed.

What I meant was that it takes far more than food to raise a family. And money is needed for more things than pensions etc can buy if children are to be raised in today's world.

And yes you are still in real terms "selling" which I have absolutly no issues with.

Samuel wrote:Our allotment plot is about 41/2 acres made up into 15 allotments of 40 poles but some are let as half plots and some as double plots. There is one 40 pole plot vacant at present.

At the Council meeting last night it was decided, and minuted, to allow the `status quo` to apply. QEDSamuel

Please, what does this mean in lay terms? Thank you!.

It mreans that the Council appreciates that an allotment being worked is better than empty plots which would need to be maintained by the council in a clean state : precept being spent instead of accumulating.

Samuel

Hi Samuel,

I'm not surprised that you have some vacant plots. Many people new to gardening find a 5 perch plot daunting. I dread to think what they would make of 40 poles.
Perhaps the council should try letting some much smaller plots

I'm still waiting for the critics of selling surplus produce to explain what harms this does anyone.

It makes me laugh that some can justify that giving away produce is acceptable whilst selling is wrong. Proves to me that those that undertake lifestyle hobby allomenting have no appreciation of the true needs that allotments were intended to fulfil.

Again what harm does selling healthy fresh vegetables to those who want them do? (Except perhaps risk upsetting those that can afford to give produce away.)

Barney

Doesn't upset me Barney, I just consider it immoral and (technically) illegal.

Making a profit while taking a considerable subsidy at the expense of all ratepayers in the council area.

I choose not to do it, but do not berate those who do.

However if someone does and gets penalised, tough, them's the laws (Allotment acts) under which Councils are legally obliged to provide allotments and the conditions go with them.

Ignore the terms of your lease at your own risk.

peter wrote:Doesn't upset me Barney, I just consider it immoral and (technically) illegal.

Making a profit while taking a considerable subsidy at the expense of all ratepayers in the council area.

I choose not to do it, but do not berate those who do.

However if someone does and gets penalised, tough, them's the laws (Allotment acts) under which Councils are legally obliged to provide allotments and the conditions go with them.

Ignore the terms of your lease at your own risk.

I'm more than willing to be corrected if wrong but I do question that it is illegal, all you have done is not obeyed all the conditions of your contract. This happens all the time, I wonder how many people live in modern estates and do not park their cars on their drives, have caravans on drives, grow bushes over a certain height in their front gardens etc etc??? If you study the wordings of many contracts they have covenants expressing what you should do and shouldn't do. It is my experience very few if any are enforced by law (costs too much and the claimant may still lose if considered unreasonable) bit like me puting up meaningless signs like all trespassers will be prosecuted (which I have done) but in reality its a nonsense. Firstly I would have to prove damage and in my opinion the council would have to prove selling for profit - very unlikely to happen. I'm just pleased that when I had a milkman he would also bring around the odd cabbage etc from his allotment and people were only too willing to purchase a fresh wholesome vegetable.

Allotment rents are far higher than agricultural field rents for equivalent areas so I can not understand how rate payers are subsidising profits from allotment holders (you already do subsidise farmers) . Further what should you do with any surplus, compost or give it away?

Compost = bit of a waste of good food that others may wish to purchase.

Give away = undermines professional growers who are rate payers also if you believe that allotments are subsidsed by rate payers.

Again I ask, what then (in this world of food shortages and green living) should you with any surplus?

Barney

It does tremendous harm.
Allotments are not just 'fields' to grow veg in. They are thriving communities. Allotmenteers are from all walks of life and all ages with one thing in common to enjoy their love of gardening away from the stresses of modern life. Gardening clubs/Assosications work to improve the allotments through the proper channels, working tirelessly with local authorities, providing Summer Shows, gardenings talks etc. which are all enjoyed and thriving. If people such as yourself Barney (your profile says you are a market gardener) were allowed to sell for profit, where would it end. One or two is Okay but how many more before the ordinary allotmenteer is squeezed out. And when you no longer work the land, the local authorities would take it back and build. When that happens our green spaces will be lost of ever. I think you are very short sighted and if you don't like the rules you shouldn't join the club.

Beryl.