Kitchen Garden Forum

Petition duly signed. I suspect this battle is going to be lost

I think the future could well tell us that the reinstatement of this chemical was a mistake. The proposed stewardship scheme is clearly nonsense and totally unenforceable for any significant period. I would be surprised if any farmer knew anything about it in 12 months time.

I am not so much concerned about the immediate, and obviously very upsetting to those affected, damage that is taking place to crops as I am about the sheer folly of introducing such a persistent chemical into the environment and food chain. Doubtless Dow have presented very compelling toxicological studies that show that, although this chemical passes through animals' digestive systems in an active state and one assumes therefore must be absorbed to some extent, it has no effect on the animals or consumers of the meat or milk up the food chain. It has to be remembered that the environmental movement was largely born out of the accumulation of DDT in the food chain. Has any work been done on the effect on small herbivores in this grassland that would then presumably pass the chemical up to the raptors in the same way as DDT was transferred? We know how long it took for that effect to be proven.

I am not anti-chemical nor organic, falling into Johnboy's "pragmatic" category, but this particular chemical worries me. There are probably other chemicals that I would be equally worried about if I had the facts available. I wish the organic movement would worry and campaign about things like this rather than stopping me using peat or Growmore.

I've signed too. But I'm inclined to agree with Geoff that the cause is lost. I don't think it's too cynical to suggest that if agribusiness (note, I didn't say farmers) and the multinational chemical companies want something they will get it. I fear that allotment gardeners and home growers are probably beneath their contempt for even complaining. I note that Dow and the "powers that be" place great stress on the fact that affected crops are not harmful to human health. If the crops don't grow properly and are not eaten then that is what Basil Fawlty would call "the bleedin' obvious".

Geoff said I wish the organic movement would worry and campaign about things like this rather than stopping me using peat or Growmore

So do I. But there again the organic movement would (rightly in my opinion) wish to campaign for the banning of hundreds, if not thousands of incompletely tested pesticides.

I have a fear that the aminopyralid problem will go on for many years yet.

Thanks Gallotments for pointing out that blackcurrants are affected by Aminopyralid. If I had read my own web site recently, I would have noticed that Dow had already confirmed to me that Blackcurrants are affected.

I think you are both probably correct that aminopyralid will be relicensed. It is too good (literally) at its job!

Real Food - I often forget what I have written on my website too. I suppose in practice any broad leaved plant could be affected - after all the stuff is designed (if that's the right word) to kill broad leaved plants.

It's just that some plants are more sensitive than others at low levels of contamination - so low that testing seems not to be able to declare the manure contaminant free. So higher the level of contamination - more types of plants are affected - If anyone has any photos of cane fruits that have been affected and would let me have them for my website that would be good.

3.1.2 After consideration of this information, the ACP advised that approvals could be reinstated subject to the rigorous conditions of the stewardship scheme which would stop the supply of manure containing residues and provide testing advice and equipment, as well as a removal service for any remaining manure containing residues on allotments or gardens.

Re testing - the above quotation from ACP is confusing re testing. I don't have much faith in the seed test other than it can prove ap is prresent - I was told that it couldn't prove it wasn't there and that testing can't prove conclusively that ap isn't present in very small untestable quantities and sensitive plants can be affected by very low levels of contamination.

On this page http://www.manurematters.co.uk/manure_sourcing.htm aimed at manure suppliers it says

[url]How can we tell if there is any aminopyralid in the manure?
Dow AgroSciences has developed a test to check whether manure or compost contains residues of aminopyralid. (See "What can I do" in the panel on the right.)

Manure samples can also be sent for laboratory analysis.

If you are selling manure that is known to contain aminopyralid you must inform your customers, and warn them not to apply it to ground in which sensitive crops will subsequently be grown.[/url]

This suggests that anyone having a pile of manure that they are unsure about can use the simple seed test and if the test shows that seeds grow OK they can offload their manure. I have emailed the website about this.

I was also told that analysis costs about £200 per sample and isn't conclusive as it can't detect very low levels so I don't know if this has changed. My understanding was testing could show ap is present but not prove it isn't

I've posted the information sheet that I mentioned in an earlier posting here
http://glallotments.co.uk/Documents/contaminated%20manure%20alert.pdf
It doesn't point any fingers of blame so shouldn't be controversial. The aim is to try and prevent some others from becoming victims. This will be even more important if or I should say when ap has its licence reinstated.

Already quite a few of my contacts have circulated the information so if anyone wants to download and pass it on then please feel free.

i've also signed the petition, in the email they sent me they said a test would be available and if the manure is contaminated they will remove it, do they mean that i will have to pay £200 for the test or is it just growing a couple of beans in the manure.
i initially thought my problem was down to really fresh manure but i've tested the dryed up manure from around the edge of the pile and i'm getting twisted and distorted growth.

You will need to ask them directly Dave. I wouldn't pay £200 for a test. In my non-scientific opinion a test can only prove the existence of ap and not that the manure is free of it!

I was told previously that testing was extremely difficult and inconclusive due to the problem detecting residue a such low doses. Also I just can't see how the bean test can prove that the entire batch of manure is ap free - or will continue to be as the plant mateial decomposes more. There just seems to be too many variables but if someone would like to explain that I am wrong please do.

Do you have to prove your manure is contaminated to have it removed?

i'm not sure if you have to have proof to have it removed ,they told me via email that a test would be available and if it was found to be contaminated they would remove it.
i've recieved another mail from them says that they will in touch soon to sort out arrangements what ever that means.

Glallotments, last night I uploaded some extra photos of the effects of aminopyralid on rasps, and they are on this page http://www.growyourown.info/page164.html
Feel free to copy and paste my aminopyralid photos for your site. If you click on the photo, you will be able to copy a bigger version of the photo.

Thanks RF
I'll have a look - it will be good to have some cane fruit to add to the album.

RF
I've added the raspberry photos to my album here
http://glallotments.co.uk/ACManure.aspx
Thanks for sharing them. If anyone else has any photos of any crops that are missing from my album I'd be really grateful if you would let me share them.

A well discussed thread on many Forums.
If you have ground to spare, as I have, & you have aminopyralid contaminated manure, spread it on the spare ground as thick as you can & leave it until the winter. Dig it roughly in & leave until Spring & then rotovate. In my experience this has worked due to the soil organisms (don't tell DowAgrochem as they're watching)!
I did lose a lot of good veg. last year!
Regards.

Hi Tel.
Still lots of misunderstanding but as you say at least many forums across the internet are spreading the word. Unfortunately though I am still coming across forums where it hasn't been discussed at all. Also some are advocating just leaving the pile to weather or the rain will wash out the problem. Also on some forums the subject is just getting people to fall out. It's amazing how aggressive some people on forums can become.

Unfortunately people are also still buying contaminated manure - knowing nothing of the problem and I'm still getting emails from new victims - one just this week. As you say digging and rotavating does help but again I have emails from one or two who had the problem last year and it hasn't yet 'gone away' in spite of following current advice. I think it depends on lots of variables including how much manure was applied and also how much of the pile was contaminated. In our case I think spot weeding was the source of contamination and so some patches of manure were more affected than others. We have been lucky.

Hi Folks

It's a little while since I posted but glad to see this issue is still going the rounds.

I just want to ask whether there is any list of potentially affected bagged composts. I have been aware of the issue of contaminated manure but didn't expect problems as I only have a small veg plot and don't buy in 'manure'. Last year I had no problems but this year I have the devil's own job of getting beans in particular to germinate - lots of other things haven't come through either, and lots just haven't grown away. Some beans that did germinate earlier have grown on but as the year has progressed I have become increasingly suspicious about having problems, as flowers, fruit and veg have just not done well this year.

At first I was using Westland Organic Veg Growing compost and then as I became suspicious I tried another - Thatcher's Supermix - an organic all-purpose compost. This doesn't seem to be much better with lots of transplants just sitting there and not growing. I sowed some leek seeds 2 weeks ago and nothing is showing yet. I'm a bit stuck as I have some seeds of winter veggies I want to do just now.

Anyone know for sure of any compost not affected?

Anne

Hi Anne,
There is no list of potentailly affected compost etc.

There has been lots of discussion this year though about the variability of compost mixes. See this thread http://www.kitchengarden.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7140&hilit=formula

The telltale sign of hormonal herbicide contamination is distorted growth so if your plants are just not really growing well maybe the problem lies elsewhere.