Kitchen Garden Forum

Quote from part of latest PSD regulatory update:
PSD has already confirmed that using manure, which may contain residues of aminopyralid, does not have implications for human health. However, in response to the concerns of allotment holders and leisure gardeners about damage believed to result from these residues, PSD has been in contact with Dow AgroSciences Limited, the approval holder and data owner for the majority of aminopyralid products approved in the UK. Dow AgroSciences have asked for their approvals to be modified whilst the situation is under investigation.
PSD has accepted this and amended the approval of all products containing aminopyralid to suspend the approval for sale, supply, and use with immediate effect whilst further investigations are undertaken.
Storage is unaffected and it remains legal and safe for these products to be stored by anyone.

I think that this confirms that this is a temporary withdrawal otherwise why advise to store?

Full update can be accessed here http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/approvals.asp?id=2501

Colin,
We are not over dramatising I think if you read my web page you will see that it is very objective. I don't really think this thread has been sensationalistic although you are correct in that some newspapers (none has been as a result of anything I have told them) have.
On our site we just feel we should have the right to know what we are buying. It isn't a case of toxic tomatoes but a case of if you get any tomatoes at all. One of our plot holders bought a new polytunnel which he filled with tomato plants. It was placed on an area that had been manured - as a result he is unlikely to get even one fruit. So he has wasted a year digging, enriching (or so he thought) his soil, buying and erecting a polytunnel, sowing seeds and raising plants for nothing. All in his first attempt to grow tomatoes and all because someone blew it!
Just wondered - maybe farmers here can help - would it be feasible to have a certificate of provenance whereby anyone who uses chemicals has to record this with any supporting information and pass this down the chain of supply - it already works in some fields. Also this would protect those supplying the manure from the consequences of supplying contaminated manure.
I agree Colin that life is full of risks but education is based on giving adequate information by which to determine whether a risk is worth taking. At the moment for me and my fellow plot-holders and gardeners who have been affected it is not worth risking using manure again unless we have adequate information regarding exactly what has gone into it and here I don't just mean aminopyralid as this whole affair has really opened my eyes!

Alan,
Once again I feel that your posting is not helping the situation one jot.
I can still purchase and use Creosote quite legally and many of the chemicals on the PSD list have not been banned it is a case that the licence for use has not been renewed which is an entirely different thing altogether.
I am as against the use of hormone based products as you are because I feel there are safer alternatives.
Your attitude to the farming community is not appreciated because, although you live in your little insular world, most people, who live in the real world, rely on the farming community for their daily bread. And so do you if the truth be known!
JB.

There is some interesting reaction from "the farming community" HERE and HERE on British Farming Forum.

I pass no comment except to say that the threads show a range of attitudes among farmers, and are well worth reading. Of particular interest might be this one:

"...the allotment lot have got their way and Dow have pulled it.
1 more chink in the armoury."

Alan,
There are 75000 farmers in the UK and you have but a few diverse comments of maybe a dozen of them. Used Strictly to the Label it is quite safe but it is abundantly clear that down the chain of events the Label instructions do not get passed on. To my way of thinking there is no real guarantee that it could ever be any different and this is why such weedkillers should be struck of the register.
However what perturbs me is that you are bringing contention into this thread that can well do without it. At present we have a united front and I feel that it is best kept this way.
Should you wish to open another thread then by all means do so but kindly do not throw this thread of course as it is far too important to all of us.
JB.

Just wondered - maybe being naive but - how will farmers know that the PSD have issued an update saying that aminopyralid should no longer be used.

By the way DOW have confirmed that the withdarwal is temporary.

gl allotments

I think you are to be congratulated for bringing this appalling problem to general attention. I don't think you are being naive at all in wondering how farmers will know about new regulations. I reckon the problem will be with all us home growers for many years to come. I for one will not be getting in any manure for the forseeable future, prefer to rely on my own compost,green manures and some bought in chicken pellets (hope they stay safe).

alan refail

I'm really grateful to you for the links you have given this thread, especially those to farming opinions. It is of interest to see how farmers have been affected and how they react.

john boy

As quite a newcomer to this excellent and informative forum I'm not aware of your status. I am surprised at your attitudes. How any post which provides information can be slapped down as contentious I just dont see. Its surely in all our interest to see dangerous pesticides banned and the sooner the better without you acting as a censor.

I have followed up the links and I see from the dow website that they are not that serious about the tempory ban on forefront Here's what they say

Immediate Suspension of UK Sales and Use of Herbicides Containing Aminopyralid.
Consistent with its long-standing commitments to product stewardship, and in cooperation with United Kingdom regulators, Dow AgroSciences has asked the Pesticide Safety Directorate (PSD) for a temporary suspension of sales and use of herbicides containing aminopyralid. The suspension shall remain in place until assurances can be given that the product and subsequent treated forage and resultant animal wastes will be handled correctly.

The move comes after reports that manures containing traces of the herbicide had allegedly led to damage of sensitive vegetable crops. Such use of manures from treated forage is in contradiction of warnings on the product label that were part of the conditions of use that form the basis of the approval for the product.

"We are very disappointed at having to take this step because for livestock farmers, the product has offered real benefits in terms of the most effective control of injurious and pervasive grassland weeds that reduce production and even threaten livestock health," said Colin Bowers, Grassland Manager. "These benefits depend on users following the approved directions for use. Where conditions of use are not reliably being met, it is appropriate for us to voluntarily suspend use while there are further investigations and a revised stewardship programme developed."

"Aminopyralid has been widely used elsewhere in the world for the past two years," said Mr. Bowers. "This issue appears to be prominent in the U.K. due to the established links between the farming and gardening communities."

PSD has previously determined that using manure containing aminopyralid residues poses no concern for human health. The product is, however, highly effective against certain plant species, which is why label directions specifically warn users not to use waste from animals fed, or grazed on treated grass, for composting or mulching sensitive plants such as peas, beans, carrots, lettuce, potatoes and tomatoes.

Aminopyralid is highly valued by livestock farmers for providing very effective control of invasive and injurious weeds. Managing such weeds has welfare benefits for livestock, as well as allowing farmers to farm productively

None of the statement seems to me to offer much hope.

glallotments

Have you seen this from Norfolk?

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/sto ... 3A02%3A213

Hi Greenman
No I hadn't seem that link and I will add it to my media list of my website - thanks.

I'll also add the quote from the DOW website. I did have an email from DOW to the same effect but a direct quote will be good to use.

From what one of my band of contacts told me a farmer that he was speaking to was shocked by what had happened and said livestock farmers and stable owners are also set to suffer from the fall-out from this problem as many of them rely on allotment sites as a place to get rid of the manure produced by their animals!!!

Hi Greenman,
The weedkiller in question is not dangerous if used to the strict letter of it's PSD licence.
It is the responsibility of the PSD to see that it is used properly as its licence defines. I do not see how they are going to manage this because there are so many transactions between farms that it is going to be almost impossible to control. I therefore feel that there could well be the possibility of an outright ban.
To start making comments and posting information that is not relevant to the thread, albeit they might be of interest to you, is likely to cause the thread to be knocked off course.
This thread is too important for this to occur.
In my previous thread I mention that there are 75000 farmers and we are talking of probably about less than 50 sites affected and it would seem that this particular weedkiller has quite a high uptake by farmers. I deeply regret that even one site has occurred.
We now have to await the outcome and if we are not satisfied then we must all consider what course of action must be taken. But if we start getting at loggerheads then we will lose the case.
JB.

What alternatives to manure are forum members going to try? I don't produce enough compost of my own, and as this looks as if it will be a problem for some time( years?) Perhaps we need ideas for safer soil improvers/fertilisers. A successful harvest next year is really what we are looking for to restore our faith in growing our own fruit and veg.

Doctor Deb
I asked lots of questions of the RHS- the answers are on this web page. http://glallotments.co.uk/Manure2.aspx

Their answer to your question was :
Don’t stop using mulch. Organic mulches are essential to improving soil structure and soil moisture. If a reliable source of manure is not available, try using an alternative source of organic matter such as garden compost, leafmould, composted bark or composted green waste from your local council. Although it is possible that composted green waste may sometimes be made from raw materials that contain weedkiller, lawn mowings for example, we have not found this to be a problem. With increasing awareness of the risks associated with weedkiller residues in manure and composted green waste, this problem with hopefully decrease in the future.

No answers there then!
I've dump't my pile of toxic manure.
No organic growing until when???????????????????

I happened along a website that I thought may be of interest following Tel's comment about organic growing.

It actually opened my eyes to what organic actually means in terms of how manure is used. Maybe not directly linked to our current problem but according to emails that I have received it seems suspect manure has been obtained from organic sources and so maybe we can't be as confident about supplies from this type of supplier either.

The link is http://living.morethan.com/2008/07/29/h ... ave-to-be/

Radio 4 iPM programme had a piece on all of this today http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ipm/rss.xml Not much new, but interesting to hear that this is becoming a national issue. Well done, glallotments