Kitchen Garden Forum

On my Allotment site there are no facilities to dump weeds and waste,so that which you don't compost yourself has to be taken off-site and put outside your house for collection and disposal by the Council.I take no chances and dump it with the general waste but Sod's Law I bet most people will put it in the green waste bags along with any nasty which it might contain which is then turned into compost at the council's depot.

Strangely, there is a standard for topsoil - BS3882

The green waste is shredded, metal and other rubbish removed and is composted on an industrial scale at temperatures that kill most things. It is not things like clubroot that bother me, but the rubbish that goes in the wood waste skips which get added to the mix. I'm thinking leaded paint, older wood preservatives (fence posts are accepted officially). Apparently the formaldehyde from the chipboard doesn't survive the composting process. I wonder how carefully they check for heavy metals though.

It's the mower clippings from weed or moss killed lawns that worry me, and the glass shards.

My very first venture into using municipal compost was a disaster.
I plunged my hands into the compost and received a shard of glass that went down the back of my fingernail and entered the top knuckle joint!
After surgery I was off work for 10 weeks at the most important time of the year for a nurseryman and had I not had some very supportive staff who were such a great team I probably would have gone bankrupt.
So let it be buyer beware!
JB.

alan refail wrote:My main point was that it was good to see a company that actually published the contents of its composts. I only referred to the Chat Moss story insofar as it is interesting to see that the company being so reviled by the environmentalists for going about its peat business is also the company which produces New Horizon compost which is the favourite non-peat baby of the environmentalists themselves

Maybe not a favourite for much longer!

http://www.organicinthegarden.com/forum ... ,48.0.html

Good morning Alan,
This is the typical organic response that so dismays me. It probably doesn't even enter their heads that Peat has provided the capital to research into the making of New Horizon non-peat compost.
So typical that it has long become a bore!
JB.

They can heat green waste as much as they like but it isn't going to deactive some herbicides. Also with the cocktail of likely chemicals contained in the green waste how do they react when heated? The green waste may be sterilised to kill pathogens but ...!

Johnboy wrote:It probably doesn't even enter their heads that Peat has provided the capital to research into the making of New Horizon non-peat compost.
So typical that it has long become a bore!
JB.

Without wishing to bore you too much further Johnboy; (as the author of the referred-to post) I would just like to mention that the inclusion of the phrase "...though you always really knew it..." might just suggest that the concept may well have 'entered my head'. Fifty-five years of life, with thirty running my own business, have not left me as naive as some might think. But at the same time; I do not fully research the business practices of the manufacturer of every product I might use.

My reason for having highlight the quoted article was primarily my dismay at the total disregard of the legal process (involving a consultation receiving about 1,000 objections) that has apparently been shown by William Sinclair; in the same way as I would take issue with (say) the removal of ancient woodland; or (say) you might object to a neighbour erecting a sizable building, in contravention of planning and other regulations. The extraction of peat per se, is a separate, albeit interrelated, matter.

In practical terms; having used New Horizon peat-free composts for three years, and found them to be much better than any other peat-free offering I have tried - I now have a decision to make for the future. But that, is another matter.

John

I've not yet found glass shards in New Horizons, just the odd bit of plastic or formica. Not yet seen any signs of herbicide damage either. On the other hand, it does appear to be variable; the bags I had last year were more like leaf mould, this year it is rather woody.

I am trying to get away from bought compost. Sieved garden compost from the heap works fine for me for greenhouse tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers etc. It is nothing much more than composted green waste and shredded woody material just like the commercial composts after all. I add seaweed meal rather than hoof and horn in New Horizons. I do add perlite and vermiculite to open it up - both of these are Sinclair products, and both consume a lot of energy to manufacture, so I can't claim a moral or environmental upper hand !

It may be of interest here to quote Garden Organic's Gardening Guidelines (page 18):

Acceptable, but not for regular use

Coarse grade seaweed meal for moisture retention
Sulphur chips to lower pH (increase acidity)
Horticultural sand and grit
Vermiculite and perlite
Coir
Bought in loam (topsoil)

http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/pdfs/Or ... s-2010.pdf

Of course it's up to the individual to decide what constitutes "regular use".

...and, of course, which of the New Horizon composts you are using -
http://www.william-sinclair.co.uk/garde ... anic_range

Tony Hague wrote:I've not yet found glass shards in New Horizons, just the odd bit of plastic or formica.

In fairness; I think it was "municipal compost" that Johnboy 'encountered' the glass in, not New Horizon.

I do however agree that I too have found the occasional bit of plastic, or fragments of melamine (?) faced chipboard, which gets into the New Horizon mix - but nothing to cause any kind of problem.

...and of course it is also agreed that the ideal has to be garden compost; but at least for the time being, I do not have that and have to resort to buying-in. Certainly, up to now, New Horizon peat-free has done what I required of it - as it appears to have done for others. I have had no need or reason to use peat-based composts (though I certainly did, when I gardened back in the seventies); nor do I see why there is a need for the so closely-linked destruction of wildlife habitat, simply to allow me to grow a few tomatoes and potatoes. That is a personal choice that I make; based on what I have read. I am not particularly interested in the science - CO2 etc is not my field. I do however understand the concept of habitat-loss - which, on it's own merits, is enough for me to know it is wrong.

What however annoys and frustrate me most, is the mass-marketing to the vast majority of 'gardening consumers'; the thousands(?) filling-up their car boots with peat-based products; oblivious to the environmental destruction carried-out in their name. These are not people necessarily making an 'informed' decision on whether or not to buy peat; they are people who see the name/face of Jamie Oliver or Alan Titchmarsh on a bag; see the mountain of 'BOGOF' sacks in the garden centre car-park, ready for easy loading; or use 'peat' because their dad/granddad always did. Many of these gardeners would make a different choice, if they knew more of the 'facts' behind the whole debate; had easy or equal access to peat-free products - or indeed were just aware that (as I discovered) quality peat-free compost can sometimes be had even cheaper than the peat alternative. It's just that nobody is telling them - that's what needs to change.

John

Hi John,
The glass shard I received the injury from was from MUNICIPAL COMPOST and not NEW HORIZON. I hasten to add John that I am not shouting at you just trying to get this over before it gets out of hand.
You seem to have the idea that when peat has been extracted nothing will ever inhabit that area again which so is very far from the truth. I feel that you should try and take just one step forward to see what that area could become. Many many nature reserves are old peat workings, gravel extractions, sand extractions, quarries and even mining waste areas.
Don't mourn the loss of something as a wildlife habitat when you do not know what will replace it you may be pleasantly surprised.
With regards to business and age I can out do you on both so I suggest that this tract is a no no. I have been a more than keen Birdwatcher since the age of eight and have travelled the world and seen an awful lot of birds and animals in their natural habitats and not by ways of expensive holidays. Actually you as a tax payer paid for that so I should be gracious and say thank you.
As an example of how the animal kingdom seems to work; I have a Badger Sett on my land and some years back now the ministry, very much against my will, gassed the entire sett and within a month another whole family moved in and thankfully the Min of Ag bully boys never came back.
That sett is still very active, too active for my liking because they and the sett on a neighbouring property choose to fight right outside my bedroom window and make the most ungodly row most of the hours of darkness. There are now too many Badgers about and that is bad for the Badgers. The only people who cannot understand this is those who look upon Badgers as wonderful cuddly animals which they are most certainly not.
I suspect that the reason Peat Product Sales have not fallen is because of the bad Non-peat products that some producers have been allowed to put on the market. I have not been able to purchase New Horizon because only the cheap and nasty products are on sale in this area.
I have just carried out a very important assignment to start off growing Oak Trees as part of my family business and I cannot depend on the survival of my business buy using sub standard material so Peat has been used. Had there been a good substitute that i could really rely on then I would have gladly used it.
You mention Alan Titchmarsh but was it you that used only half of what he said as a quote? He like me will use non-peat products when they are made to a British Standard and there is a kite mark on every bag.
This debate will have to hang fire for a time because I am in need of a holiday and I am off to France in the morning for best part of a month.
This gives us a good long pause for reflection.
Sincerely,
JB.

Thanks for the reply Johnboy; which I will certainly consider during your extended holiday and respond to in more detail, later.

I would however - in the interim - simply agree with you that the glass shard injury mention should not get 'out of hand'...

To quote your post...

"The glass shard I received the injury from was from MUNICIPAL COMPOST and not NEW HORIZON."

...which surely, is what I said in my own post...

"In fairness; I think it was "municipal compost" that Johnboy 'encountered' the glass in, not New Horizon."

...no confusion from my point-of-view.

John

Johnboy:

Firstly; I would like to stress that my own post on this forum was only in response to your post regarding my highlighting of the unlawful actions of William Sinclar, in a totally separate forum. Although I have occasionally read the various threads on the ongoing peat-debate on KG; I have had no wish to become directly involved. However; when I saw your "It probably doesn't even enter their heads" remark; I felt drawn to at least respond. However; my intention was not to enter into any great scientific debate on the subject - I am no scientist - only to express my own thoughts; which of course others may disagree with - as clearly, do you. That being so; I would stress that I have no wish to enter into a great 'war-of-words' with you. I do not have the time; and you have your holiday to enjoy. I do however feel drawn to respond to your own additional comments.

So; to deal with those points:

"Glass shard": Irrelevant to this reply and dealt with already.

"You seem to have the idea that when peat has been extracted nothing will ever inhabit that area again" and "Don't mourn the loss of something as a wildlife habitat when you do not know what will replace it you may be pleasantly surprised.": Please do not patronise me. You have no idea what I know about habitat-loss, re-instatement, practical nature conservation, or indeed anything else.

What I will however say that I know; is that once habitat that has been created over thousands of years has been destroyed; it is gone! Yes; you can of course carry-out restoration work; and much good work is being done in that regard - but what you are 'creating' is something totally different to what was there before. Yes there are wonderful nature reserves in (say - in my area) ex-chalkpits, or worked-out clay/gravel pits - but they are not the chalk-grasslands or heaths that existed there previously - and the flora and fauna that lived in those environments is gone. That 're-instatement' somehow justifies habitat-loss, is so often the developer's/despoiler's mantra and equally as often, a complete fallacy. You talk in one of your posts, of 'taking things on trust'; which even were the re-instatement acceptable, would be exactly what you would be doing with a current application, requiring actions to be taken in say 5, 10, 15 or more years' time - by an applicant who by then has no interest in the site; might not even be in business; or may show the same regard for planning regulations, as has William Sinclair!

"Business and age": mentioned purely to suggest that experience might make me not be the empty-headed person that might have been implied. Not that I might have any particular advantage over you.

'Birdwatching and Badgers': Good on you - especially if you have travelled the world (partly) at my expense. Not really sure I see the relevance though. ...and I assure you that I have no illusions about badgers being cuddly.

'Peat/Non-Peat Product sales': I have to maintain my view that the lack of 'awareness/knowledge' is an important aspect of the lack of peat-free take-up - both in 'ecological awareness' and product availability. I totally agree that there are very bad peat-free products on the market (I have used them!) - but it is still the case that there seems to be an unwillingness with many suppliers, to give peat-free products any degree of promotion; whilst the 'big-name' peat products take pride-of-place. One could almost draw an analogy with the former situation with battery/free-range eggs; where the majority knew nothing of battery-production and free-range eggs were very much a niche product; tucked-away in the corner of the supermarket shelf. (OK; I know some might say that the majority of shoppers still don't know, or care about that particular argument - but that is another matter.)

'Purchase of New Horizon': Yes, it can be difficult to source - but I imagine, if you are using it commercially (which I believe is a different product anyway), there must be some bulk-supply arrangements possible from William Sinclair, or a wholesaler?

If however you just want to 'try-it-out'; there seem to be quite a few possibilities to order standard bags on-line for home delivery; with even Wilkinson providing a 'mini' 10L bag for £2.48 (albeit with £4.95 delivery!) if you just wanted to try a couple of trays.

'Kite Mark': Sounds OK to me? I don't know anything about it - but assume the major peat-based brands must have one then? (Just had a look at Scotts - didn't find a mention of one?) What particular Standard is it - and who is going to campaign for it's introduction?

Johnboy - I think that is possibly your main points addressed... though I am sure that you will let me know of those I have missed:-)

Hope you've had a good holiday!

John