"Well!" - As Peter said earlier.
An interesting discussion. Could we please keep the comments to a non-personal basis as you may not agree with John's opinions but he does have a right to voice them as you have a right to voice yours.
We are aware of several complaints made about this forum thread and would like to keep the discussion a little more light hearted, please.
So I'll put down the proverbial stick (organic or otherwise) and stop wagging it at you all...
May I wish everyone a good weekend and hope the weathermen are wrong about the rain and storms they have forecast...
KG Admin
Facts or Feelings.
Moderators: KG Steve, Chantal, Tigger, peter, Chief Spud
Well! In the inimitable words of Peter!
If you are writing about a person it is very difficult NOT to be personal. (Think about that)
I do not like John Walkers articles but if you do then come out and say so. Point out to me the errors of my ways. Remember that sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me!
John Walker sets out to be deliberately controversial and no doubt thrives on the mayhem that he might cause. He will not bat an eyelid at what has been versed here on this forum. This is why he writes the way he does. I simply take offence at not only what he says but the way he says it. If this happen to be personal then ‘Tant Pis.’
If you can waste your time complaining to the magazine why not voice your opinion on forum? At least come to the defence of John Walker!
You all wonder why this forum goes quiet, well lets liven it up a bit, which is exactly what I have been trying to do!
JB.
Alteration makes more sense of my first sentence! Errr!
If you are writing about a person it is very difficult NOT to be personal. (Think about that)
I do not like John Walkers articles but if you do then come out and say so. Point out to me the errors of my ways. Remember that sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me!
John Walker sets out to be deliberately controversial and no doubt thrives on the mayhem that he might cause. He will not bat an eyelid at what has been versed here on this forum. This is why he writes the way he does. I simply take offence at not only what he says but the way he says it. If this happen to be personal then ‘Tant Pis.’
If you can waste your time complaining to the magazine why not voice your opinion on forum? At least come to the defence of John Walker!
You all wonder why this forum goes quiet, well lets liven it up a bit, which is exactly what I have been trying to do!
JB.
Alteration makes more sense of my first sentence! Errr!
Last edited by Johnboy on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
John Walker
- KG Regular
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:51 am
- Location: Conwy county, North Wales
- Contact:
Having carefully read the comments on this thread following publication of my article ‘Ahead of the carbon curve’ in the December issue of KG, pages 62-63, I wanted to respond to some of the specific points, especially those which have cast doubt on the authenticity of some of its content.
I have done my best to do that succinctly, but I apologise for this still being a rather lengthy post, although I hope there will be something here for forum members who want to explore various topics themselves.
Although I will always try to respond to claims of inauthenticity in my work, I rarely, if ever, due to their generally unproductive nature, enter into endless two-way discussions, and I intend to abide by that here.
The numbered points in italics are all comments taken from elsewhere in this thread.
1. “It’s interesting he composts all sorts of printed matter, elsewhere organic practice seems to question the origins of the cardboard before they compost it and the acceptability of the pigments. I also compost everything I can think of but not tea bags, why use them?” Geoff
As you can see from the picture in the article I compost anything, basically, that has an organic origin and will rot down. The method I use for my plastic ‘dalek’ bins is simply to add fresh material to the top of the bin. This is a slow and ‘cold’ composting system in which I don’t turn the materials. In my experience it is by far the most common way the beginner/average gardener makes garden compost. I rely on the soil’s microflora/fauna, and on composting worms, which come up into the bin from the soil, to break the stuff down (more on composting worms under point 7.).
My experience is that there is generally a relaxed attitude to composting printed card packaging and cardboard, although it’s still advisable to avoid such things as glossy magazine supplements for garden use. Most printing inks are of vegetable origin these days, and balanced against the downside of ‘exporting’ a valuable resource either for recycling (which will require energy) or landfill (where a cereal packet could well become a source of the potent greenhouse gas methane), my preference is to turn it into soil-enriching compost. Plus I do not have a wheelie or recycling bin, which forces me to look at all my ‘waste’, as well as my own part in the waste chain.
If you have a link to any information raising concerns over using cardboard and printed card packaging as part of the compost recipe, I would be interested to read it.
I generally use loose tea to keep my use of packaging/materials to a minimum, but I haven’t yet found a source of loose leaf organic Indian Chai.
2. “I’m afraid I cannot see this idea of keeping a thin organic layer on the surface of doing anything to raise the captured carbon – surely traditional digging a spade down would do more. A foot of humus rich soil must be better than a few inches.” Geoff
The drawback with digging and/or ploughing soil is that it exposes organic matter already in the soil to the air and the oxygen in it, triggering a chemical reaction that turns it into the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide (or CO2). So by digging you could be undoing a lot of good by liberating carbon from the soil where it was previously safely ‘locked away’. It also disturbs a finely balanced ecosystem on a regular basis.
The best approach if you already have a well-cultivated, regularly dug soil that’s been improved with organic matter over many years, is probably to think about ways of disturbing it as little as possible - ‘minimum tillage’. A foot of humus-rich soil that’s disturbed as little as possible is likely to be the best option of all in terms of carbon capture. I accept that when starting out, whether it be with an overgrown garden or allotment, or with a piece of rough land like I had, digging and soil disturbance is likely to be inevitable at the outset. But once you get going and the growing areas are marked out, you can start to move toward a minimal or no-dig way of gardening, which relies on disturbing only the top few inches of soil if and when necessary - perhaps to work in some compost - and rely on earthworms and other soil organisms to incorporate organic material into the soil (just like nature does).
I would urge KG readers to look at the recent Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’. It is the most important piece of Government policy to come forward on the UK’s soils for a long time and can be downloaded as a PDF file from:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/qua ... rategy.pdf
3. “It’s alright being against centralised recycling but where do most people live? Do they have access to land to add the compost to?” Geoff
I am certainly not against recycling per se, but I do question the logic of rolling out an energy and resource-intensive ‘slop bucket’ scheme when better education could get more people making compost, even on a small scale. Bokashi buckets allow you to pre-prepare kitchen waste for composting (or for adding straight to the garden) in your kitchen, and even those without a plot can usually find room for a wormery to deal with most uncooked kitchen waste (but of course excluding meat, etc). There is nothing to stop those making worm compost, if they can’t use it themselves, from donating it to someone they know who has a growing area, even if it’s just on a balcony - or even to a local community garden.
Here’s a link to information about Bokashi (an Australian site but the principles are the same):
http://www.bokashi.com.au/How-Bokashi-works.htm
4. “I’m waiting for future articles to repeat the theory once propounded here that green manure can rectify deficiencies, even trace element shortages. In a closed organic system using self made compost and green manure deficiencies can never be rectified, with the exception of nitrogen fixation, if it isn’t in the soil in the first place it can’t be in the compost or the green manure.” Geoff
Closed organic systems (where the goal is to create a self-sustaining ‘loop’ that requires few if any external inputs like synthetic fertilisers and fossil fuels) are a proven, tried and tested commercial reality. I have seen this in action and it’s quite an eye-opener, as well as being a signpost to how all growing - whether in garden or field - might look in the future, and it’s a way of doing things that I aspire to in my own garden.
Tolhurst Organic Produce in Berkshire run an organic vegetable box scheme supplying several hundred families. As well as being organic, their system is also ‘stockfree’, meaning they use no animal manures to maintain soil fertility, or indeed any animal inputs at all - such as dried blood, bonemeal, etc. Nor do they import compost from outside, but make all their own from on-site vegetable wastes. But key to the whole enterprise is green manures, which are used to build and maintain soil fertility over a nine-year rotation.
Tolhurst Organic Produce has a very low carbon footprint and is at the cutting edge of demonstrating low carbon, climate-friendly farming. Anyone with any reservations about the untapped potential for using green manures should have a look at their web site. It’s packed with accessible information, including some verified detail on their carbon footprint. They also hold open days where you can go and learn about low-carbon vegetable growing for yourself.
For more information on stockfree (also known as vegan-organic) growing, the web site of the Vegan-Organic Network is well worth a visit.
http://www.tolhurstorganic.co.uk/index.cfm
http://www.veganorganic.net
5. “Plus the crass and ignorant comment about forest soil. Which coincidentally is EXACTLY what he then champions as what does he think soil that is not dug but covered with leaf mould and rotting leaves is?” Peter
“Again he mentions DEFRA in order to try and add credence to his article. Does he think that we are that easily fooled?” Johnboy
I was not seeking to ‘fool’ anyone. My comment in the article ‘Our emaciated farmland and forest soils, starved of organic matter, are blowing and washing away’ is the wording I chose to use after looking through the DEFRA report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’ (which I’ve already mentioned under point 2.) and from reading various news reports, including one from the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8272022.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ming-defra
6. “With the bin removed his compost is a total disgrace and the classic example as how NOT to make compost! I would be totally ashamed if that was my compost exposed!” Johnboy
The caption to the picture of my compost-in-progress reads “With the bin removed, you can see how composting worms can turn virtually anything with landfill potential into climate-cooling compost. My underpants are in there somewhere...”
This is what you see when you temporarily lift off a plastic dalek-style compost bin when using a ‘cold’ composting technique (which I have described under point 1.). This is how I make compost with a wide range of ‘green’ and ‘brown’ kitchen, household and garden waste. What the picture shows is the profile of the compost inside the bin. The material at the top is the fresh addition, that right at the bottom - the dark brown, crumbly material - is the ‘finished’ compost that’s ready for use. In-between is the material in all the different stages of decomposition. Composting worms tend to gather in the zone where the fresh materials are starting to rot down, which is in the lower third of the picture in the magazine.
You cannot show this with the compost bin in place, hence I removed it to take the photograph. It was then, naturally, replaced.
7. “I suspect that the worms used as an example are not the 'laughing variety' from John's own bin but the turn-out of a wormery.” Johnboy
Please rest assured that the worms in the picture were taken from my compost bin and not from a wormery. When I set up my plastic dalek-style bins, the bin is set down on soil and the composting worms migrate into it of their own accord. I then leave them to do the hard work of turning kitchen and household waste into compost. If I’m emptying one bin and setting up another, then I’ll transfer a few handfuls of composting worms to the fresh bin, but it really isn’t essential.
It’s a common misconception that composting worms are somehow exclusively found in wormeries, but my compost bin, as I’m sure are those of many other gardeners, is literally alive with them.
8. “Who is trying to kid who? To convert the LH sample to the RH sample would take an awful lot longer than the text below suggests, if ever. My thoughts are that it would take more than a gardeners gardening lifetime. As it is I simply do not believe that the two samples are remotely related. Can you even imagine how much compost it would take to convert the area of an allotment?” Johnboy
The two soil samples in the picture were taken from my own garden. The sample on the left is taken from the terrace I am developing next, where the soil is as yet unimproved, while the sample on the right is taken from a bed of soil that has been receiving regular additions of organic matter since 2005. This sample is typical of the soil in my established garden beds, which you can see in the picture on page 60 of Kitchen Garden, October 2009.
The caption to the picture of the two soil samples clearly says that the compost I’ve made from kitchen/household waste has “helped transform my virgin soil”. I was not suggesting it did the job on its own. Indeed, the darker soil sample is a result of me adding organic matter since 2005, which includes seaweed, and composted bracken and leaf mould, both of which I make myself, and through growing the green manure buckwheat. I have also added some rock dust, and Dolomitic lime to raise the pH. (Incidentally, I have used no animal-derived manures or soil improvers/fertilisers in the development of my garden - see the link to Tolhurst Organic Produce under point 4.)
I’m pretty amazed at the results myself. The raw, unimproved soil here is acid, devoid of organic matter and has virtually no nutrients to speak of, although it has reasonably good structure and drains well (a boon in North Wales!). My soil was dumped by retreating glaciers, so it’s been hard work getting to this stage, but I’m delighted with progress. Perhaps my soil improvement is an extreme example, but it does nevertheless show just what can be achieved in only a few years, and it also demonstrates that it clearly doesn’t take a ‘gardener’s lifetime’ to bring soil into a condition where it will start growing good crops.
From my experience with allotments on long-established fields, the soil, even on an overgrown, neglected allotment, is often in pretty good heart because it will have been cultivated for many year’s beforehand. Soil structure also tends to improve when regular cultivations like digging cease. I tend to agree that on a brand new allotment site, where the soil is perhaps in a pretty poor condition (or the topsoil has been inadvertently removed), that it would take a large amount of compost to quickly get the soil into a fit state for cropping. But, equally, allotment sites tend to be located near towns and cities where green composting facilities already exist or are planned, and large quantities of green waste compost ought to be available. And there are always green manure crops which will improve both the organic matter content and the fertility of soil by utilising sunlight (see point 4.).
If any doubts remain as to the authenticity of the picture of the two soil samples, then you are welcome to come and scrutinise my soil for yourself.
9. “If you look in the October issue page 61 there are some of John Walkers beds that are roughly dug and spread with manure/compost and surprise I do not see any soil remotely like the LH sample not even a tinge of red! Come on now we deserve honesty!” Johnboy
There is clearly confusion here. The caption to this picture reads: “This is my kind of allotment site - peaceful and human-free on a warm summer evening”. This is not my allotment, but one of the organic allotments at Moelyci Environmental Centre (http://www.moelyci.org), about 25 miles from here. I do not claim in the article that the picture is my allotment. Indeed, I think it’s quite clear that when comparing the picture of me in my garden with the one of the allotment site, that they are not one and the same.
10. ‘There are many many thousands of properties that have not got the facilities to make compost and if they did nowhere to dispose of it. At present these properties have nowhere to dispose of vegetable waste than in the dustbin. Once in the dustbin it is not possible to separate it out so it is destined to go into landfill. If with a slops bucket this waste can be kept and collected separately then Local Authorities have a chance to deal with this waste to the benefit us all. A win win situation!” Johnboy
Of course there will always be households who are struggling to make compost, but everyone can try to do their bit - please see my response to point 3. Separation of kitchen waste from general (and un-compostable) waste is generally improving as environmental imperatives kick in. ‘Slop buckets’ must surely be viewed as a last resort.
I have done my best to do that succinctly, but I apologise for this still being a rather lengthy post, although I hope there will be something here for forum members who want to explore various topics themselves.
Although I will always try to respond to claims of inauthenticity in my work, I rarely, if ever, due to their generally unproductive nature, enter into endless two-way discussions, and I intend to abide by that here.
The numbered points in italics are all comments taken from elsewhere in this thread.
1. “It’s interesting he composts all sorts of printed matter, elsewhere organic practice seems to question the origins of the cardboard before they compost it and the acceptability of the pigments. I also compost everything I can think of but not tea bags, why use them?” Geoff
As you can see from the picture in the article I compost anything, basically, that has an organic origin and will rot down. The method I use for my plastic ‘dalek’ bins is simply to add fresh material to the top of the bin. This is a slow and ‘cold’ composting system in which I don’t turn the materials. In my experience it is by far the most common way the beginner/average gardener makes garden compost. I rely on the soil’s microflora/fauna, and on composting worms, which come up into the bin from the soil, to break the stuff down (more on composting worms under point 7.).
My experience is that there is generally a relaxed attitude to composting printed card packaging and cardboard, although it’s still advisable to avoid such things as glossy magazine supplements for garden use. Most printing inks are of vegetable origin these days, and balanced against the downside of ‘exporting’ a valuable resource either for recycling (which will require energy) or landfill (where a cereal packet could well become a source of the potent greenhouse gas methane), my preference is to turn it into soil-enriching compost. Plus I do not have a wheelie or recycling bin, which forces me to look at all my ‘waste’, as well as my own part in the waste chain.
If you have a link to any information raising concerns over using cardboard and printed card packaging as part of the compost recipe, I would be interested to read it.
I generally use loose tea to keep my use of packaging/materials to a minimum, but I haven’t yet found a source of loose leaf organic Indian Chai.
2. “I’m afraid I cannot see this idea of keeping a thin organic layer on the surface of doing anything to raise the captured carbon – surely traditional digging a spade down would do more. A foot of humus rich soil must be better than a few inches.” Geoff
The drawback with digging and/or ploughing soil is that it exposes organic matter already in the soil to the air and the oxygen in it, triggering a chemical reaction that turns it into the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide (or CO2). So by digging you could be undoing a lot of good by liberating carbon from the soil where it was previously safely ‘locked away’. It also disturbs a finely balanced ecosystem on a regular basis.
The best approach if you already have a well-cultivated, regularly dug soil that’s been improved with organic matter over many years, is probably to think about ways of disturbing it as little as possible - ‘minimum tillage’. A foot of humus-rich soil that’s disturbed as little as possible is likely to be the best option of all in terms of carbon capture. I accept that when starting out, whether it be with an overgrown garden or allotment, or with a piece of rough land like I had, digging and soil disturbance is likely to be inevitable at the outset. But once you get going and the growing areas are marked out, you can start to move toward a minimal or no-dig way of gardening, which relies on disturbing only the top few inches of soil if and when necessary - perhaps to work in some compost - and rely on earthworms and other soil organisms to incorporate organic material into the soil (just like nature does).
I would urge KG readers to look at the recent Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’. It is the most important piece of Government policy to come forward on the UK’s soils for a long time and can be downloaded as a PDF file from:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/qua ... rategy.pdf
3. “It’s alright being against centralised recycling but where do most people live? Do they have access to land to add the compost to?” Geoff
I am certainly not against recycling per se, but I do question the logic of rolling out an energy and resource-intensive ‘slop bucket’ scheme when better education could get more people making compost, even on a small scale. Bokashi buckets allow you to pre-prepare kitchen waste for composting (or for adding straight to the garden) in your kitchen, and even those without a plot can usually find room for a wormery to deal with most uncooked kitchen waste (but of course excluding meat, etc). There is nothing to stop those making worm compost, if they can’t use it themselves, from donating it to someone they know who has a growing area, even if it’s just on a balcony - or even to a local community garden.
Here’s a link to information about Bokashi (an Australian site but the principles are the same):
http://www.bokashi.com.au/How-Bokashi-works.htm
4. “I’m waiting for future articles to repeat the theory once propounded here that green manure can rectify deficiencies, even trace element shortages. In a closed organic system using self made compost and green manure deficiencies can never be rectified, with the exception of nitrogen fixation, if it isn’t in the soil in the first place it can’t be in the compost or the green manure.” Geoff
Closed organic systems (where the goal is to create a self-sustaining ‘loop’ that requires few if any external inputs like synthetic fertilisers and fossil fuels) are a proven, tried and tested commercial reality. I have seen this in action and it’s quite an eye-opener, as well as being a signpost to how all growing - whether in garden or field - might look in the future, and it’s a way of doing things that I aspire to in my own garden.
Tolhurst Organic Produce in Berkshire run an organic vegetable box scheme supplying several hundred families. As well as being organic, their system is also ‘stockfree’, meaning they use no animal manures to maintain soil fertility, or indeed any animal inputs at all - such as dried blood, bonemeal, etc. Nor do they import compost from outside, but make all their own from on-site vegetable wastes. But key to the whole enterprise is green manures, which are used to build and maintain soil fertility over a nine-year rotation.
Tolhurst Organic Produce has a very low carbon footprint and is at the cutting edge of demonstrating low carbon, climate-friendly farming. Anyone with any reservations about the untapped potential for using green manures should have a look at their web site. It’s packed with accessible information, including some verified detail on their carbon footprint. They also hold open days where you can go and learn about low-carbon vegetable growing for yourself.
For more information on stockfree (also known as vegan-organic) growing, the web site of the Vegan-Organic Network is well worth a visit.
http://www.tolhurstorganic.co.uk/index.cfm
http://www.veganorganic.net
5. “Plus the crass and ignorant comment about forest soil. Which coincidentally is EXACTLY what he then champions as what does he think soil that is not dug but covered with leaf mould and rotting leaves is?” Peter
“Again he mentions DEFRA in order to try and add credence to his article. Does he think that we are that easily fooled?” Johnboy
I was not seeking to ‘fool’ anyone. My comment in the article ‘Our emaciated farmland and forest soils, starved of organic matter, are blowing and washing away’ is the wording I chose to use after looking through the DEFRA report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’ (which I’ve already mentioned under point 2.) and from reading various news reports, including one from the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8272022.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ming-defra
6. “With the bin removed his compost is a total disgrace and the classic example as how NOT to make compost! I would be totally ashamed if that was my compost exposed!” Johnboy
The caption to the picture of my compost-in-progress reads “With the bin removed, you can see how composting worms can turn virtually anything with landfill potential into climate-cooling compost. My underpants are in there somewhere...”
This is what you see when you temporarily lift off a plastic dalek-style compost bin when using a ‘cold’ composting technique (which I have described under point 1.). This is how I make compost with a wide range of ‘green’ and ‘brown’ kitchen, household and garden waste. What the picture shows is the profile of the compost inside the bin. The material at the top is the fresh addition, that right at the bottom - the dark brown, crumbly material - is the ‘finished’ compost that’s ready for use. In-between is the material in all the different stages of decomposition. Composting worms tend to gather in the zone where the fresh materials are starting to rot down, which is in the lower third of the picture in the magazine.
You cannot show this with the compost bin in place, hence I removed it to take the photograph. It was then, naturally, replaced.
7. “I suspect that the worms used as an example are not the 'laughing variety' from John's own bin but the turn-out of a wormery.” Johnboy
Please rest assured that the worms in the picture were taken from my compost bin and not from a wormery. When I set up my plastic dalek-style bins, the bin is set down on soil and the composting worms migrate into it of their own accord. I then leave them to do the hard work of turning kitchen and household waste into compost. If I’m emptying one bin and setting up another, then I’ll transfer a few handfuls of composting worms to the fresh bin, but it really isn’t essential.
It’s a common misconception that composting worms are somehow exclusively found in wormeries, but my compost bin, as I’m sure are those of many other gardeners, is literally alive with them.
8. “Who is trying to kid who? To convert the LH sample to the RH sample would take an awful lot longer than the text below suggests, if ever. My thoughts are that it would take more than a gardeners gardening lifetime. As it is I simply do not believe that the two samples are remotely related. Can you even imagine how much compost it would take to convert the area of an allotment?” Johnboy
The two soil samples in the picture were taken from my own garden. The sample on the left is taken from the terrace I am developing next, where the soil is as yet unimproved, while the sample on the right is taken from a bed of soil that has been receiving regular additions of organic matter since 2005. This sample is typical of the soil in my established garden beds, which you can see in the picture on page 60 of Kitchen Garden, October 2009.
The caption to the picture of the two soil samples clearly says that the compost I’ve made from kitchen/household waste has “helped transform my virgin soil”. I was not suggesting it did the job on its own. Indeed, the darker soil sample is a result of me adding organic matter since 2005, which includes seaweed, and composted bracken and leaf mould, both of which I make myself, and through growing the green manure buckwheat. I have also added some rock dust, and Dolomitic lime to raise the pH. (Incidentally, I have used no animal-derived manures or soil improvers/fertilisers in the development of my garden - see the link to Tolhurst Organic Produce under point 4.)
I’m pretty amazed at the results myself. The raw, unimproved soil here is acid, devoid of organic matter and has virtually no nutrients to speak of, although it has reasonably good structure and drains well (a boon in North Wales!). My soil was dumped by retreating glaciers, so it’s been hard work getting to this stage, but I’m delighted with progress. Perhaps my soil improvement is an extreme example, but it does nevertheless show just what can be achieved in only a few years, and it also demonstrates that it clearly doesn’t take a ‘gardener’s lifetime’ to bring soil into a condition where it will start growing good crops.
From my experience with allotments on long-established fields, the soil, even on an overgrown, neglected allotment, is often in pretty good heart because it will have been cultivated for many year’s beforehand. Soil structure also tends to improve when regular cultivations like digging cease. I tend to agree that on a brand new allotment site, where the soil is perhaps in a pretty poor condition (or the topsoil has been inadvertently removed), that it would take a large amount of compost to quickly get the soil into a fit state for cropping. But, equally, allotment sites tend to be located near towns and cities where green composting facilities already exist or are planned, and large quantities of green waste compost ought to be available. And there are always green manure crops which will improve both the organic matter content and the fertility of soil by utilising sunlight (see point 4.).
If any doubts remain as to the authenticity of the picture of the two soil samples, then you are welcome to come and scrutinise my soil for yourself.
9. “If you look in the October issue page 61 there are some of John Walkers beds that are roughly dug and spread with manure/compost and surprise I do not see any soil remotely like the LH sample not even a tinge of red! Come on now we deserve honesty!” Johnboy
There is clearly confusion here. The caption to this picture reads: “This is my kind of allotment site - peaceful and human-free on a warm summer evening”. This is not my allotment, but one of the organic allotments at Moelyci Environmental Centre (http://www.moelyci.org), about 25 miles from here. I do not claim in the article that the picture is my allotment. Indeed, I think it’s quite clear that when comparing the picture of me in my garden with the one of the allotment site, that they are not one and the same.
10. ‘There are many many thousands of properties that have not got the facilities to make compost and if they did nowhere to dispose of it. At present these properties have nowhere to dispose of vegetable waste than in the dustbin. Once in the dustbin it is not possible to separate it out so it is destined to go into landfill. If with a slops bucket this waste can be kept and collected separately then Local Authorities have a chance to deal with this waste to the benefit us all. A win win situation!” Johnboy
Of course there will always be households who are struggling to make compost, but everyone can try to do their bit - please see my response to point 3. Separation of kitchen waste from general (and un-compostable) waste is generally improving as environmental imperatives kick in. ‘Slop buckets’ must surely be viewed as a last resort.
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peter
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John, thank you for the courteous reply to the various points raised.
With regards to the one you quote me on I would fuly agree with the DEFRA statement applying to chemical input only farmland and possibly to cleared forest being converted to arable use, however I would not accept it's general application to healty forest.
There are dangers in quoting Government publications though, as all too often there is politics, manipulation of view, opinion and concealment of facts rather than pure fact.
The eggs are in the fridge......
With regards to the one you quote me on I would fuly agree with the DEFRA statement applying to chemical input only farmland and possibly to cleared forest being converted to arable use, however I would not accept it's general application to healty forest.
There are dangers in quoting Government publications though, as all too often there is politics, manipulation of view, opinion and concealment of facts rather than pure fact.
The eggs are in the fridge......Do not put off thanking people when they have helped you, as they may not be there to thank later.
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
I support http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/
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Colin Miles
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- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:18 pm
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The tone of John's reply is a welcome change from that which he tends to use in the magazine. The fact that he is not particularly friendly with fellow allotmenteers is also not very helpful to his cause. I do worry, also, about his interpretation and understanding of the scientific evidence. As for the DEFRA report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’ which I have just looked at, it does seem to contain an awful lot of statements of intent. And when I read, for instance, that
'There have been two large scale national surveys which have monitored changes in soil carbon over time. One found a serious decline in levels of soil carbon in England and Wales between the late 1970s and 2003. The other shows no significant changes in soil carbon in Great Britain between 1978 and 2007. Therefore, trends in soil carbon concentrations remain unclear, and we will continue to focus on understanding this issue better.'
my confidence in the rest of it falls considerably, especially as the rest of it tends to be based solely on the on the first finding.
As has been remarked before, most people on this forum agree with the main principles of Organic gardening, but take exception to the extremes. Similarly with regard to Global Warming and in respect to that I would say that conserving energy, recycling, etc., makes perfect sense as it saves money and resources. At the end of the day - don't you just love that phrase(!) - facts, properly researched and presented from respectably scientific sources is the best way of making your case.
'There have been two large scale national surveys which have monitored changes in soil carbon over time. One found a serious decline in levels of soil carbon in England and Wales between the late 1970s and 2003. The other shows no significant changes in soil carbon in Great Britain between 1978 and 2007. Therefore, trends in soil carbon concentrations remain unclear, and we will continue to focus on understanding this issue better.'
my confidence in the rest of it falls considerably, especially as the rest of it tends to be based solely on the on the first finding.
As has been remarked before, most people on this forum agree with the main principles of Organic gardening, but take exception to the extremes. Similarly with regard to Global Warming and in respect to that I would say that conserving energy, recycling, etc., makes perfect sense as it saves money and resources. At the end of the day - don't you just love that phrase(!) - facts, properly researched and presented from respectably scientific sources is the best way of making your case.
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John Walker
- KG Regular
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- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:51 am
- Location: Conwy county, North Wales
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"I do worry, also, about his interpretation and understanding of the scientific evidence ... At the end of the day - don't you just love that phrase(!) - facts, properly researched and presented from respectably scientific sources is the best way of making your case." Colin Miles
The Soil Association held a Soil Carbon Symposium in February 2009, involving 12 leading scientists from across the UK.
The resulting report says 'There is significant potential for taking carbon out of the atmosphere and putting it back into agricultural soils. Through soil carbon sequestration measures, the agricultural sector offers major opportunities for greenhouse gas mitigation...'
The report is available (as a small PDF file) at:
http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClic ... &tabid=313
DEFRA's report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’, was published in September 2009, over six months after the above mentioned symposium. The Soil Association described the Goverment's soil strategy as 'unambitious':
http://www.soilassociation.org/News/New ... fault.aspx
The Rodale Institute in the USA have been researching soil carbon for many years (as well as researching organic growing for farmers and gardeners since 1947, http://www.rodaleinstitute.org). This is a 3-minute YouTube video explaining how a switch to organic growing could lock up 40 per cent of global carbon dioxide emissions:
http://capwiz.com/grassrootsnetroots/is ... 46&type=CO
And this is a longer but informative interview with Rodale's Tim Lasalle on the US TV network E&E, discussing how organic growing can help lessen the impacts of global warming:
http://www.eenews.net/tv/video_guide/796
You can also read an informative article 'The organic revolution: how we can stop global warming', by Ronnie Cummins, here:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/10/22-11
And there is an excellent article 'Climate-friendly farming' by Mukti Mitchell in the current issue of Resurgence magazine (http://www.resurgence.org), which discusses how a new approach to growing can help 'turn back the carbon clock':
http://www.resurgence.org/magazine/arti ... rming.html
The Soil Association held a Soil Carbon Symposium in February 2009, involving 12 leading scientists from across the UK.
The resulting report says 'There is significant potential for taking carbon out of the atmosphere and putting it back into agricultural soils. Through soil carbon sequestration measures, the agricultural sector offers major opportunities for greenhouse gas mitigation...'
The report is available (as a small PDF file) at:
http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClic ... &tabid=313
DEFRA's report ‘Safeguarding our soils: A strategy for England’, was published in September 2009, over six months after the above mentioned symposium. The Soil Association described the Goverment's soil strategy as 'unambitious':
http://www.soilassociation.org/News/New ... fault.aspx
The Rodale Institute in the USA have been researching soil carbon for many years (as well as researching organic growing for farmers and gardeners since 1947, http://www.rodaleinstitute.org). This is a 3-minute YouTube video explaining how a switch to organic growing could lock up 40 per cent of global carbon dioxide emissions:
http://capwiz.com/grassrootsnetroots/is ... 46&type=CO
And this is a longer but informative interview with Rodale's Tim Lasalle on the US TV network E&E, discussing how organic growing can help lessen the impacts of global warming:
http://www.eenews.net/tv/video_guide/796
You can also read an informative article 'The organic revolution: how we can stop global warming', by Ronnie Cummins, here:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/10/22-11
And there is an excellent article 'Climate-friendly farming' by Mukti Mitchell in the current issue of Resurgence magazine (http://www.resurgence.org), which discusses how a new approach to growing can help 'turn back the carbon clock':
http://www.resurgence.org/magazine/arti ... rming.html
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Geoff
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First may I repeat Peter's thank you for taking the time out as a busy professional to reply to us at such length and also to agree with Colin that the tone is preferred to the abrasiveness of the articles. As several of the paragraphs quote my points I shall respond.
To be fair we know your background but you know nothing of us so perhaps a brief sketch is in order. I have never been a horticultural professional by training or employment, in fact I trained as a Chemical Engineer which means I think I am intelligent with a leaning to science and technology. Most of my career was spent in production management with the later years in IT before I retired. I have gardened all my life and have had a large 1½ acre garden for the last 25 years. Here we have all types of cultivation from "production" areas with two greenhouses, a fruit cage, vegetable beds and an orchard, a small woodland, ponds, rockeries, ornamental areas and a lot of grass. It is at 600' on the edge of the Forest of Bowland with lightish acid soil and very high rainfall. I am also a confirmed cynic and sceptic; I've always admired the Royal society motto "Nullius in Verba" " Take nobody's word for it".
I hope I can comment on all your paragraphs without losing the will to type!
1. I compost everything much like you do but in 6 bins of over a cubic metre each constructed of breeze blocks with slatted fronts and carpet lids. On another forum I picked up somebody expecting all the things going into compost to be "organic" but they didn't quote a source - I'll have to investigate. I only mentioned tea bags as they are a particular hate of mine, like paper tissues (I compost those as well).
2. I see in your second post you have set us a lot of homework on carbon capture. I may come back to this when I have done my reading. Provisionally I stick to my point that burying captures more. You say digging exposes previosly buried material to the atmosphere but leaving it on the surface in the first place surely gives it more exposure. I had started to read about the DEFRA soil initiative (in fact I had already posted a link in our other thread related to this one viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7607) but like Colin I got lost in the statements of intent without getting to any meat, I must have another go.
3. I think formal collection from city environments is the way to go. We would all like to see farmland treated better (not a problem round here) by increasing humus content with chopped straw, municipal compost and treated sewage. Economic forces will probably get us there without much political intervention.
4. I have started reading the links you posted and have a few difficulties with them. Tolhurst looks a very commercial venture (not a criticism) but in the end does not sell entirely their own produce, entirely organic produce or entirely UK produce - quite pragmatic really. The site doesn't give any significant cultivation insights. There is more information on the Vegan-Organic site. I have still to complete my reading but the green manure document introduction includes "To maintain organic matter levels in the soil therefore gardeners must also rely on extensive use of green manures, particularly legumes, for nitrogen and deep-rooting green manures for recovery of phosphate and potash from subsoil". So the assumption is that all soils contain sufficient P and K and you can access it indefinitely from deep down. From skimming through the rest of the article this approach requires fallow seasons. I am still to be convinced it is sustainable and universally applicable.
This will have to be the end of part one. I felt your response required the politeness of a timely acknowledgement. I shall read as many of your linked articles as I can manage and probably compose a part two. If you follow our other discussion linked above you will see that we concluded that the only viable environmental solution is population control. How do you feel about that subject and have you an array of articles linked to it? I saw a discussion in the online Guardian recently where many people argued that economic emancipation reduces the birth rate so the problem is self controlling if economies grow. I feel this is nonsense as (a) we haven't the resources to achieve the emancipation and (b) if it would work the growth before it kicked in would have destroyed the planet.
To be fair we know your background but you know nothing of us so perhaps a brief sketch is in order. I have never been a horticultural professional by training or employment, in fact I trained as a Chemical Engineer which means I think I am intelligent with a leaning to science and technology. Most of my career was spent in production management with the later years in IT before I retired. I have gardened all my life and have had a large 1½ acre garden for the last 25 years. Here we have all types of cultivation from "production" areas with two greenhouses, a fruit cage, vegetable beds and an orchard, a small woodland, ponds, rockeries, ornamental areas and a lot of grass. It is at 600' on the edge of the Forest of Bowland with lightish acid soil and very high rainfall. I am also a confirmed cynic and sceptic; I've always admired the Royal society motto "Nullius in Verba" " Take nobody's word for it".
I hope I can comment on all your paragraphs without losing the will to type!
1. I compost everything much like you do but in 6 bins of over a cubic metre each constructed of breeze blocks with slatted fronts and carpet lids. On another forum I picked up somebody expecting all the things going into compost to be "organic" but they didn't quote a source - I'll have to investigate. I only mentioned tea bags as they are a particular hate of mine, like paper tissues (I compost those as well).
2. I see in your second post you have set us a lot of homework on carbon capture. I may come back to this when I have done my reading. Provisionally I stick to my point that burying captures more. You say digging exposes previosly buried material to the atmosphere but leaving it on the surface in the first place surely gives it more exposure. I had started to read about the DEFRA soil initiative (in fact I had already posted a link in our other thread related to this one viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7607) but like Colin I got lost in the statements of intent without getting to any meat, I must have another go.
3. I think formal collection from city environments is the way to go. We would all like to see farmland treated better (not a problem round here) by increasing humus content with chopped straw, municipal compost and treated sewage. Economic forces will probably get us there without much political intervention.
4. I have started reading the links you posted and have a few difficulties with them. Tolhurst looks a very commercial venture (not a criticism) but in the end does not sell entirely their own produce, entirely organic produce or entirely UK produce - quite pragmatic really. The site doesn't give any significant cultivation insights. There is more information on the Vegan-Organic site. I have still to complete my reading but the green manure document introduction includes "To maintain organic matter levels in the soil therefore gardeners must also rely on extensive use of green manures, particularly legumes, for nitrogen and deep-rooting green manures for recovery of phosphate and potash from subsoil". So the assumption is that all soils contain sufficient P and K and you can access it indefinitely from deep down. From skimming through the rest of the article this approach requires fallow seasons. I am still to be convinced it is sustainable and universally applicable.
This will have to be the end of part one. I felt your response required the politeness of a timely acknowledgement. I shall read as many of your linked articles as I can manage and probably compose a part two. If you follow our other discussion linked above you will see that we concluded that the only viable environmental solution is population control. How do you feel about that subject and have you an array of articles linked to it? I saw a discussion in the online Guardian recently where many people argued that economic emancipation reduces the birth rate so the problem is self controlling if economies grow. I feel this is nonsense as (a) we haven't the resources to achieve the emancipation and (b) if it would work the growth before it kicked in would have destroyed the planet.
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Colin Miles
- KG Regular
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:18 pm
- Location: Llannon, Llanelli
I'm another who trained as a Chemical Engineer and have spent much of my life writing and designing computer programs/systems - and doing a lot of gardening at various times. So may I echo Geoff in saying 'I am also a confirmed cynic and sceptic; I've always admired the Royal society motto "Nullius in Verba" " Take nobody's word for it".'
Which brings me to the Soil Association links that you give re Carbon Capture. Read the first one and knowing where the Soil Association come from alarm bells start to ring. The problem is that one can always point to reports like these - and I have just gone through some of the others - but the actual science behind it, especially the facts and figures are subject to wide margins of error - which is why you have the conflicting statements about whether there is Carbon loss or not.
I would be interested to know the chemistry behind soil oxidation resulting in CO2 release. From what I have searched on this the main problem occurs with flooding.
Which brings me to the Soil Association links that you give re Carbon Capture. Read the first one and knowing where the Soil Association come from alarm bells start to ring. The problem is that one can always point to reports like these - and I have just gone through some of the others - but the actual science behind it, especially the facts and figures are subject to wide margins of error - which is why you have the conflicting statements about whether there is Carbon loss or not.
I would be interested to know the chemistry behind soil oxidation resulting in CO2 release. From what I have searched on this the main problem occurs with flooding.
Hi John Walker,
Since your first posting I have been reading and rereading your magazine articles and all the other paraphernalia. I am struggling to make sense of it all.
What comes through loud and clear is that you have a great many dislikes that somehow seem to cloud your judgement.
It doesn’t really matter how much compost make or how many worms you have it is what you actually do with the compost is the all important thing.
We are told (not by you I hasten to add) that for compost to become a carbon store it must be dug in deeper than gardeners would normally like it. Now I read that we are no longer in the age of the spade but find it difficult to equate the two things.
I rather think that we read DEFRA reports but somehow you read between the lines and come up with a different conclusion about the same report to most of us.
Are we to be told how to make omelettes without breaking eggs I wonder!
You make this wonderful compost and we see the supposed results but what you fail to say or show is how you incorporate this compost into the soil.
What people new to gardening are making of it all only heaven knows! They must certainly be more confused than the rest of us.
I made a comment about the photo of your compost which I stand by. No self respecting worm would enter that matter on the surface it is far too dry and incorrectly mixed. Worms rely on a very damp environment to do their work and there is a complete absence of any green mix. Now you may consider that I am nit picking but we have people new to making compost that, through the magazine, deserve a better example than the one you are showing them!
The Photo of the worms is contrived because you do not find worms in a pose like that in a compost heap. I can understand this because they are very hard to photograph as they do not like the light and are all diving for cover as quick as a flash.
You put the two soil samples side by side and the accompanying caption leads you to believe that you have turned one into the other which it turns out not to be the case.
You also fail to tell us how deep the RH sample is on your plot. In four years not very would be my guess.
In order to rectify the acidity you have used Dolomite and Rock Dust. What help the Rock Dust is unknown to me with regards to acidity. I suspect you are after micronutrients but fail to explain this. In order to higher your PH you must incorporate these chemicals into the soil but again you fail to tell us how. These chemicals must be to at least a spade depth for then to have any bearing on the acidity of your soil because again you fail to tell us how you achieve this.
This all seems to be coming to one conclusion that what you are saying is “Do as I say and not do as I do.”
When you consider that your column is entitles “Digging Deeper with John Walker” to me this seems to be an ironic misnomer.
JB.
Since your first posting I have been reading and rereading your magazine articles and all the other paraphernalia. I am struggling to make sense of it all.
What comes through loud and clear is that you have a great many dislikes that somehow seem to cloud your judgement.
It doesn’t really matter how much compost make or how many worms you have it is what you actually do with the compost is the all important thing.
We are told (not by you I hasten to add) that for compost to become a carbon store it must be dug in deeper than gardeners would normally like it. Now I read that we are no longer in the age of the spade but find it difficult to equate the two things.
I rather think that we read DEFRA reports but somehow you read between the lines and come up with a different conclusion about the same report to most of us.
Are we to be told how to make omelettes without breaking eggs I wonder!
You make this wonderful compost and we see the supposed results but what you fail to say or show is how you incorporate this compost into the soil.
What people new to gardening are making of it all only heaven knows! They must certainly be more confused than the rest of us.
I made a comment about the photo of your compost which I stand by. No self respecting worm would enter that matter on the surface it is far too dry and incorrectly mixed. Worms rely on a very damp environment to do their work and there is a complete absence of any green mix. Now you may consider that I am nit picking but we have people new to making compost that, through the magazine, deserve a better example than the one you are showing them!
The Photo of the worms is contrived because you do not find worms in a pose like that in a compost heap. I can understand this because they are very hard to photograph as they do not like the light and are all diving for cover as quick as a flash.
You put the two soil samples side by side and the accompanying caption leads you to believe that you have turned one into the other which it turns out not to be the case.
You also fail to tell us how deep the RH sample is on your plot. In four years not very would be my guess.
In order to rectify the acidity you have used Dolomite and Rock Dust. What help the Rock Dust is unknown to me with regards to acidity. I suspect you are after micronutrients but fail to explain this. In order to higher your PH you must incorporate these chemicals into the soil but again you fail to tell us how. These chemicals must be to at least a spade depth for then to have any bearing on the acidity of your soil because again you fail to tell us how you achieve this.
This all seems to be coming to one conclusion that what you are saying is “Do as I say and not do as I do.”
When you consider that your column is entitles “Digging Deeper with John Walker” to me this seems to be an ironic misnomer.
JB.
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Shallot Man
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I think this argument is going to get out of hand, personally you have lost me. 