Kitchen Garden Forum

Ooooh I didn't know that! Thanks for that Richard. We use full fat milk in this house due to having an under five year old anyway but it's still good to know. I've never used skimmed milk as a) it tastes disgusting and b) it's only about 4% fat anyway I think. I've always preferred the untampered-with stuff, such as butter and things with sugar in as opposed to sweetener and it seems now that these are turning out to be the best options.
Really interesting article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magaz ... nd&emc=rss

for people interested in this kind of thing. It's a bit long but if you read the beginning and the end you get the gist.

I think Alison put the situation very clearly. So many things are being muddled up under the term Organic. And Richard, yes, so many people are being confused and muddled about low fat food - and many other things. I may be wrong, but the first thing that I thought of when that Professor recently suggested that there were long term links with tumours and mobile phones was that 'he would say that wouldn't he' as he had applied for funding. But I digress and this will upset Allan - sorry!

I also agree with Alison. Organic food and food miles are different things altogether, even though they are part of an overall ethical concept. I would welcome 'Carbon Footprint' information but for a different reason. I buy organic food for health reasons, but avoid heavy food miles items on more ethical grounds.
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Granny

Nothing to do with food miles, but a very sensible article from Joanna Blythman in yesterday's Observer Food Monthly

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmont ... 43,00.html

I think the key sentence is

"To be practically useful, cut the bullshit and get results, government dietary advice could be summed up in one simple sentence: eat as little processed food as possible and base your diet on home-cooked meals, made from scratch from raw ingredients."

Alan

It may surprise some of you but I also have a view on this subject.

What absolute arrogance the SA have, is it not good enough for them to have stolen the word ‘organic’ from the English language for their own exclusive use? Now they have the effrontery to consider previously organic food not organic because they don’t approve of air miles. So what is next, perhaps they do not like farmers with 4x4s, blue eyes or Christians. If the food is organic then it is organic, isn’t it? George Orwell wrote a book on a society that we have now become called 1984. Even Benito Mussolini was less fascist than the Soil Association; at least he was originally elected to parliament.

Barney

Hi

The messages are interesting - seems to me that the term "organic" has no clear meaning anymore - just one of those words that make some people feel good in themselves and others feel very satisfied with the profit margins that goes with the label. We need a different way of describing sensible, sensitive, pragmatic gardening and food production. The concept of "organic" was never well defined. Now that the multinationals have taken over the term we need a new vocabulary to express the values which go with the mininimum use of pesticides and fungicides, maximum use of re-cycled products to improve the soil, minimum transport costs, and a fair deal for farmers and growers in the UK and across the world.

The pragmatic gardener

Come on Barney! Don't beat around the bush. Let us know how you really feel!

When you consider that aprrox 75% of "Organic" food sold in retail outlets is imported and whether imported by air or sea or land/sea links it all uses far too much fuel. Organic farms use considerably more diesel than conventional farms so perhaps that should be taken into consideration.
It is the SA themselves that have been striving for years to get "Organic Produce" into the supermarkets so really they are complaining about their own campaigning. (that sounds about par for the course)
So to now bring this up they are really aiming at their own feet.
When you consider that the SA banned the use of Guano naming as one of the factors as the use of fossil fuel to get it to the UK and also saying that too much disturbance to bird life as the other and generally showing their ignorance because the birds that produce this wonderful fertilizer are fully pelargic and only ever come to land to breed and no guano is taken during the breeding season. That is an example of their thinking and to me they are just a very few people holding the power and their decisions are based on Dogma and certainly not common sense.
As Barney says even Mussolini was elected to power but the SA were not and they have got hundreds of people jumping through unnecessary hoops.
I, like Chris, remain Pragmatic.
JB.

I, like Chris, remain Pragmatic.
JB

So do I
A long time ago I said that the big mistake was the way the legalisation of Organic was done.
If only the products that they claim to care about were labelled "to Soil Association Standards" things would have been different, as it is the world is slowly coming round to realise that the legalised Organic term is an irrelevance and has been taken over by the marketing people.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I'm not trying to defend any appropriation of the word 'organic' but the SA are not the only certification body, and indeed are probably the only one that takes its position seriously, and puts it's money where it's mouth is... i.e. into research & support for organic growing.

The majority of organic food that you see in your supermarket is certified by profit-making organisations. At least the SA is trying to make a difference, rather than simply sitting back and taking the money.

But obviously, comparing the SA (a charitable organisation dedicated to trying to ensure the voracity of the claims of food producers) to Benito Mussolini (a violent fascist dictator) is a perfectly rational comparison to make... but I seem to remember that he was not strictly elected, but asked to form a government by Vittorio Emanuele III under the threat of a civil war...

Of course 'organic' is a marketing exercise... so was 'dig for victory', which was, of course, indirectly responsible for the downfall of Mussolini

If you're not SA organic - oh dear . But you don't hear the fizzy wine producers of Spain moaning because they can't call their product Champagne. They simply launch a counter campaign and sell us all Cava...

Put your money where your mouths are and launch a 'Pragmatically farmed' project...

Your a brave man Mr Potato Head, a very brave man indeed.

Apologies to Peter, for veering off topic a little...

As it happens, my personal inclination is that organic growing and food miles are separate issues which would not be served by bundling one with the other, but I would be happy for the SA (or other responsible body) to maintain a 'standard' on both.... but, for the sake of my sanity, and the rest of us on this forum... let's not let them use the word 'local'

But, seriously, if they or anyone was going to measure them, surely a total distance travelled, rather than line-distance would be a logical test.

Well said Mr PH. Your grasp of Fascist history is sounder than Barney's. You could also have mentioned that Mussolini started out as a committed Socialist.
You make a very valid point about "band-wagon" producers making a profit by the use of terminology. We know well enough which members of the forum will rubbish Soil Association/HDRA/Organic at any opportunity.
I have often wondered what a "pragmatic" gardener is. I know organic standards, I know what is and has been available in the chemical armoury for the opposing camp. Perhaps one of our "pragmatic" members could put together a series of standards for the non-organic, non-chemical to follow, along the lines of the HDRA's Organic guidelines
http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/members/contents.php

I await the flak.

Alan

The take-over of the term "organic" by big business is actually a measure of the success achieved by us consumers deliberately buying organics! Let's not knock it.

At least companies that qualify for the label "organic" will have to cut back on pesticides and herbicides. One huge benefit for developing countries is the substantial benefit to their workforces. Many newspaper articles have pointed out that the lack of H&S practices in developing countries means that workers don't wear proper protective clothing and poisons are not used in the correct amounts. So the more encouragement we can give for their farmers to turn organic, the better, and this means supporting them by buying their products.

That's why I would like to see carbon emissions given a separate label, so that I can make my choice.

I do eat seasonally, and don't buy strawberries in winter! But there are things that I would be reluctant to give up, that do come with food miles attached: e.g. bananas, oranges, lemons, spices, avocados. No matter what the seasons, we won't be eating much of these here if we exclude all overseas food miles! Some of these, especially bananas, are a developing country's sole source of income, so stopping buying them because of the food miles could do a huge amount of economic damage to struggling countries. We really need a way of minimising the carbon produced by the importer - ships use less than than aircraft: perhaps someone could invent a ship covered with solar panels to reduce its oil use!

Chris said: "Now that the multinationals have taken over the term we need a new vocabulary to express the values which go with the mininimum use of pesticides and fungicides, maximum use of re-cycled products to improve the soil, minimum transport costs, and a fair deal for farmers and growers in the UK and across the world."
Surely the word that encompasses all these concepts is "sustainable"?

But given the remarkable success of the organic movement in changing attitudes towards pesticides and herbicides, I for one wouldn't want the word to be changed, or diluted by putting other concepts into it, that would better be covered by the word "sustainable". I WOULD like a new term, such as "carbon footprint" to be brought into use, to show a product's carbon use.

It is very difficult trying to be a principled and sustainable consumer....
Alison

On a light note, it's worth remembering that we were importing fruit from abroad before we had carbon-chomping vehicles to do so... how about a return to wind-powered ships?

Any sailors out there that could comment on the feasibility of this...