Kitchen Garden Forum

Dear Allan, i have found it to be very beneficial to trench the compost in deeply, especially in the last few years as it has been exceptionally dry, the compost or manure has really seemed to have helped to retain the moisture, as a result aiding the plants in the driest periods.
I must say i also use organic matter incorporated into the top few inches of the soil as well.
I really do feel this method does pay off, but maybe i'm just a glutten for punishment.

Kind regards Old Herbaceous.

Theres no fool like an old fool.

just an observation , in agriculture locally usually only the top 6 inches or so is cultivated , ploughing to a foot is regarded as deep , and only really done for root crops.

Hi Richard,
What must be realised is that with soils, especially clay, that the soil is not used for anything but cereal crops and certainly for Potatoes hereabouts they plough at least 12". For certainly allotments on Clay double digging is a great advantage and the benefits are apparent in the first year. It is not only nutrition that you have to worry about but drainage. With clay soils it is so easy to ruin a crop by water-logging. It really is essential that all of us have about one spit of productive soil to work with.
Obviously this is not understood in some quarters by should be totally apparent to anybody with a modicum of sense.
JB.

OK then tell me what Old Red Sandstone is classed as?
It is the dominant soil in many parts of this area but is never mentioned in any reference that I come across, turns to a slurry in the winter, is always very slow to dry out completely in the summer, but when it dries out it can be crumbled with a few blows. I do know from practical experience that nearly everything grows in it successfully with shallow cultivation.
There are so many different kinds of soil that it is impossible to say dogmatically what is right for any category until you try, even the fact that the ground slopes can have an effect on the water contour at various times of the year.
Allan

Dear Allan, i was only saying what i find best with my allotments, i am sure different methods work better in different soils and as you quite rightly say different situations.
I only ever say what i find works best for me, and the advice i give, can be taken or left as it wouldn't suit everyone.
AS for the Old Red Sandstone it sounds as it needs a class of it's own.
It sounds as if it's one of those soils you need a few years of growing in, to find out how to get the best results out of it, something you a very unlikely to find in a book.
Did it take you long, to find out how to get the best results out of it.

Kind regards Old Herbaceous.

Theres no fool like an old fool.

Double digging has it's merits, but is certainly hard work. When I took over my plot on heavy clay some 12 years age I double dug it all, working in organic matter, sharp sand and course grit as I could get hold of it.

Since then I have evolved a system that involves deep cultivation when I plant spuds every three years, or when I bury the garden waste at the back end of the seson (my compost heaps are terrible). It's still hard work, but there are clear benefits to the soil structure.

As I work on a large scale I could not possibly double dig any appreciable area, even single digging to the depth of a spade is a luxury so I don't do it any more generally. As I now have physical problems I have this year adopted top dressing followed by use of a cultivator and I have yet to see any deterioration of crops but as the compost or manure is more concentrated in the surface this has become much easier to hoe or plant so that has to be the regime. I have stopped growing parsnips, the maincrop carrots are only sown in June.
Allan

I double dug my new veg beds last year (and I mean new, as in they didn't exist before) and I can safely say that I shall never do it again. Not because of any philosophical or horticultural belief, but because it was bloody hard work in soil that is somewhat akin to Brighton beach.

On a practical note (and being an inexperienced gardener) I'm not sure what the purpose of it actually is anyway. My natural tendency towards laziness means I shall certainly be considering Bob Flowerdew & Co's 'no dig' methods this year!

Oh, BTW wellie, the linen look is very 'in' this year... but not in the garden, as linen snags really easily!

Hi Mr PH,
Quote:
On a practical note (and being an inexperienced gardener) I'm not sure what the purpose of it actually is anyway. My natural tendency towards laziness means I shall certainly be considering Bob Flowerdew & Co's 'no dig' methods this year!

I'm afraid not all of us have any idea what Brighton Beach is like so that is lost on some of us but by comparison you are a young man and obviously out of tune. Of course it's hard work, a lot of gardening is hard work, but it really depends how much you want to succeed. Obviously you are not as dedicated to growing as some people are. I cannot understand you doing something without knowing the merit or demerit of what you are doing. If you are prepared to take what nature throws at you then you are fine but if you want to really succeed then you should read up on Double Digging before you start and that goes for any mammoth task. In many instances it is not needed so just think you may have expended all that energy unnecessarily when it could have been used sitting before your computer or even down the pub supping some fine ale.
JB.

Alright smartypants...

I dug my beds because (like brighton beach) my soil is exceptionally gravelly, and I wanted to work in some extra organic matter to help my veggies.

I think what I meant was that I wasn't sure why I was advised to go down quite so deep. The topsoil layer is quite shallow, (as I think much of the area around mine is) and I also found a goodly portion of a car buried under my lawn, so it was worth going down by a spades depth, just perhaps not two!

In defence of the young (ish), 'we' are not afraid of hard work, as can be testified by my aching body, after a weekend installing a fence around my dad's garden. The double digging was a result of some poor advice before I started working for KG, and so obviously I am much better advised Mostly by you JB!

As such I shall now take your final piece of advice and spend a lot more of my energy consuming fine ales in a suitable local establishment...

(And believe me, i've learned an awful lot in this first 'proper' year of gardening)

Hi Mr PH,
It was meant really as a tongue in cheek posting.
I guess I had my tongue between my teeth when you delivered your smart uppercut!!
Enjoy supping.
JB.

there are two quotes i think applicable, guess which one came from a civil servant

"work expands to fill the time available"

"work smarter, not harder"

the only thing i would add is i do as little digging as possible and we are now at the stage where we have to eat something from the chest freezer before we can store anything else, so my methods are adequate for me.

JB : Do you know what potato yield per acre farmers get with their 12" ploughs?
I've done a crude calculation. I got about 80 Kgs of Charlotte off half one of my beds, i.e. about 125 square feet (I love these mixed units). I think that is about 27 or 28 tons per acre. If it is significantly different it shows deep garden cultivation is better than scratching the surface like farmers do.

Mr Potato Head wrote:Alright smartypants...

I dug my beds because (like brighton beach) my soil is exceptionally gravelly, and I wanted to work in some extra organic matter to help my veggies.

Phew, and there I was thinking Mr PH was taking "life" art classes at his allotment.

Hi Geoff,
Farmers do not scratch the surface hereabouts and Potatoes are sown as deep as the topsoil will allow.
Due to late frosts they use Nadine sown late and earthed up high to allow the spuds to grow but not show before the last frosts.
Spuds sown in mid May were harvested last week and the yield was very low but the spuds of exceptional quality this year. I'm afraid the yield is generally around 22 tons per acre. They also sow at 36" between rows, which I doubt you do, so to make a corelation would be quite difficult. They are spaced like that for mechanical lifting and handling.
I no longer grow Main Crop spuds but when I did I sowed at 27" twixt rows and 15" down the row which I feel is the ideal.
JB.