Kitchen Garden Forum

As usual there is a middle way. Eat all the different varieties of fruit, vegetables, fruit, nuts etc. that you can get, best eaten raw if you can get fresh stuff. Eat some meat in moderation but it is wise not to eat the red meats for protein which still leaves chicken, turkey and other fowls and of course fish has a lot going for it especially the oily fish, salmon, mackerel, trout, sardines, sprats etc. for omega3. A useful supplement is Tofu or Quorn, personally I don't like either.

In reply to a few people, I only stopped eating meat because of the food diary I kept. At the moment, I could murder a bacon butty but I know that if I did, I would be in pain for the next three days so it's just not worth the aggrivation.

This is not something that I have done lightly. I only ever bought organic meat in the first place for ethical reasons.

If someone wants to become veggie for ethical or health reason then fair enough. I don't mind if people eat meat. If it floats your boat then fine.

I object to sweeping statements. It is unfair and unjust to put people in the same category as their own perceived standards. People do things for their own reasons and I believe in live and let live.

Lizzie, DW stopped eating Red Meat on account of that sort causes arthritic pain. You should be all right with the alternatives as per my mailing.

I was thinking about vegetarianism while walking the dog this morning and came to the conclusion that being vegetarian for ethical and humanitarian reasons assuming you still eat dairy stuff is a nonsense. Only female cows give milk and then only after they've calved. So what is supposed to happen to all the boy calves? To do it properly you have to be a vegan.
Jo

true Jo, sometimes I think i am the only vegetarian that doesn't wear leather shoes . I work on the principle that if its dead i wont have it, I was vegan for 7 years, but after I started feeding the kids milk and cheese started to eat dairy produce occasionally. You have to make an informed choice.

I'm not a veggie, but like Valmarg I am careful about where I buy meat and agree that battery and intensive farming is a total disgrace. I try and balance my meals so if I have meat 1 night for dinner, I go for a veggie option the next just because I think that's healthier, but that's just my opinion. The fact is that you can be totally healthy on a veggie or vegan diet, but it does take more thought to balance it - especially if you don't want to eat dairy products or eggs.

Happymouse -I would recommend you look east for inspiriation. After all thousands of people in India and the surrounding coutries don't eat meat for religious reasons and have been happy and healthy for generations. Their food also uses veggie food for it's own sake, rather than the European approach of trying to replace the meat on your plate with a veggie option. The book I use most is Eastern Vegetarian Cookery by Madhur Jaffrey which is full of great tasting recipies. If you make sure your meals contain a mix of the main protein sources (pulses, grains & dairy products) and eat loads of fruit and veg, you will not go far wrong.

At the risk of sounding like a total hippy, veggie is just like any other lifestyle choice. Everyone has to make their own decisions on what's right for them, but we also need to respect other people's decisions on how they choose to live their lives.

Sue

I am not vegetarian, but eat many meatless meals. I would agree that Eastern Vegetarian Cooking by Madhur Jaffrey is a fantastic book, my copy is getting so battered that I am going to have to replace it soon. Try also her World Vegetarian.

I would also recommend Ken Hom's Vegetarian Cooking. And for a rather different, though interesting view the Moosewood Cookbook by Mollie Katzen, bit hippy-dippy, but if you can get past that some very good food.

Maybe it is the " campaigning" and attempts to "persuade" that folk do not like. No-one I know has any idea what my choice is re meat etc; why should they? They are they and I am me. We are not clones. The first time I stated my own preferences and the reasons for them, I saw hackles rise. The second time was even worse! So I stopped doing that in respect for them and for peace. And just quietly go the way that is right for me; and for my system/health status. If I am out and offered food with kindness, I eat it without fuss, as a thankfulness to those who give hospitality; unless it is something I am badly allergic to. Which is something most understand. and I offer what I have as hospitality also quietly. Food is a great pleasure. Whatever your choice.

There is one aspect of this subject that nobody has mentioned. Have you ever thought what widespread vegetarianism would do to the countryside and the environment. Our countryside with its field structure is man-made and in the less favoured areas there is no real alternative to animal husbandry, even that in many places has to be subsidised. Originally most of UK was mixed forest and witout man's intervention it would largely revert to forest. This means that a lot of the diversity of habitats would disappear.
Another aspect of vegetarianism is that high protein foods such as nuts and soya are imported, we haven't got the climate to grow them here. So there would be a significant increase in this trade. I don't know how much it would be balanced by a decrease in imported meat.
On the subject of whether slaughtering animals is cruel, it doesn't have to be and the alternatives of leaving the animals to die naturally might be more painful. Many animals in the wild have a painful death from predators. I cannot see that being torn to bits while still alive by a predator is at all nice. As to using the parts of an animal after death I am in favour of making good use of all possible parts, bones, skin, the lot. This somewhat to me justifies raising the animal for our own purposes.

Well, as happens so often with this forum, the discussion is in danger of degenerating into a spouting-off competition (who can come up with the most extreme prejudice using the least amount of logic and evidence?). Just for the record: vegetarians do NOT eat meat or fish of any kind; people who do so and call themselves vegetarians are either badly misinformed or lying outrageously. Don't judge genuine vegetarians by those poseurs, please! After dealing with countless veggie-bashers over the years, I still haven't worked out exactly why they get so aggressive about what amounts to somebody else's private food choices (after all, what I eat doesn't make you sit on the toilet, right?).

As a devoted carnivore, I thought I might add something to this debate. My brother has been a vegetarian for the past 25 years. Super fit/non smoker/professional mountaineer, he was diagnosed with cancer in 2002 at the age of 44. Having collapsed on a climb in America, he was diagnosed as having a thymic tumour in July 2002. Flown back to the UK as an emergency, he had a bed booked in ITU (Sheffield) for 6 weeks but was only there for 3 days. Having had the tumour, part of his lungs and the pericardium of his heart removed, he was up and about within 36 hours. He was back on his usual training regime within 4 days and at work within weeks.

Every scan thereafter was clear until October 2004 when they noticed he had another primary tumour in his chest and secondaries in both lungs.

They decided that his cancer was so advanced that no treatment was applicable and his prognosis was 3 months maximum.

Assuming he makes it to February 2006, he will have lived (rather than survived) 16 months since that diagnosis. He is currently in the Alps, doing new snow and ice climbs. In the last year he has climbed new routes in Sardinia, France, Sicilly, Ireland, Italy, Scotland, Wales, England, America and South Africa.

I'm still a dedicated carnivore but his specialist doctors believe his survival is due to his healthy diet, fitness and stress free life.

Who am I to argue?!

If you want to support his work, please contact Challenge Cancer. I can let you have the website/e-mail address.

Tigger, I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. I do hope things improve for him. I became a vegetarian many years ago (not for health reasons, but because right from childhood I baulked at putting bits of corpse into my mouth!). I was really unprepared for the improvements I felt in my health, almost from the start - odd little things, such as the condition of my hair and skin, a reduction in minor infections and a dramatic increase in my energy levels. Oh yes, and my mood became generally calmer too! Although of course I can't prove that either my health or my "karma" would have been any different if I'd remained a flesh-eater, at least I have shown to my own satisfaction that the human body doesn't "need" meat in order to stay alive and function well. When all's said and done, diet is a personal choice and I'm glad your brother's choice seems to have helped in dealing with his cancer. All the best to him, you and your family in future.

I have nothing to add to the ethical debate, other than to reitierate that a balanced diet is a complicated thing and all people should be informed enough to choose a healthy diet.

And many omnivores are short of fibre and antioxidents and many vegetairans are short of iron and protein and many vegans run the risk of B12, calcium, iron and protein deficienceis.

everyone should take nutrition seriously and should know what they are eating and why !

Wow! I've encountered many kinds of prejudice in my life but never against vegetarians for goodness sake!!
I LOVE vegetarians - more meat for me!!
Allan, the world would be a far better place if we were all vegetarian. I'm going from memory here but it takes about 12 times the amount of land to produce the same calorific value of meat as grain. Yes, I take your point about some land only being fit for grazing, but most of these grazing animals are overwintered on fodder grown on land that could be used for growing human food.
It's well documented that people are dying and getting cancer from eating too much meat and not enough vegetables.
Come on people - direct your prejudice against some of the real evils in our society!

Good morning from rainy Ireland.

Interesting debate.. Allan, the scene you describe sounds like heaven. It is what is happening in large areas of Russia around Chernobyl where they stopped all farming because of contamination. The natural balance is returning. Here in Ireland as farming dwindles, "the forestry" is taking over; vast areas of artificial and not usually native trees that are easy to maintain and commercially very lucrative. And a new balance of flora and fauna is emerging.

Some while ago I came across this website..
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... isdom.html

It speaks for itself..

Myself? I cannot afford meat, simply. And fish! I went to buy some at a harbour stall at Killybegs, "Ireland's premier fishing port" and almost fainted at the prices. More food value in a 21 pence tin of beans...And I am relieved as I prefer not to take life unless I need to. As you know, I take in many stray critters and birds, as pets, and that tends to alter awareness of where meat comes from. Mnay need nursing back to health also and that creates a real bond of love.
I stopped eating meat very gradually and that was fine and a good way also. I honestly don't miss it at all.
If I am given meat, at a meal or elsewhere, I eat it. From kindness and economy. But I have noticed, because it is rare that I do, that I feel "weighed down" and internally heavy, tired, less alert, for days after. This is so just now after a "Sunday treat". Awful feeling. And I know others who find the same. The next meat I am given will go to the cats! I will enjoy watching them eat it more than doing so myself.
We are each so different in what we like and what we can eat. I have an illness that means there are many food allergies so I live within that limitation, and many as we grow older are the same. Fruit is largely "out" because of the acid, so vegetables I grow are great. Yes, we have to take care, but the standard advice dietitians give does not work for me.
Each to his own in this; I know my own system and needs and that works for me.
I would certainly never criticise anyone who eats differently from me; why should I do that? This is when debate becomes a row. Each stating a view is fine.