Hi Jenny,
Read what I said and your posting becomes redundant.
The name for White Fly EGGS is Scales. Now read what I said!
A tale for the beginners
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Jenny Green
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Sorry Johnboy but you're not making any sense. On the one hand you say that you can import plants with immature whitefly (which you referred to as scales - I confused this with scale insect), but on the other hand you seem to think that not buying in plants can't possibly reduce the risk of getting whitefly. How can the two things be true?
If I don't import plants and I have no one with a heated greenhouse in the immediate vicinity, then I think I'm unlikely to get whitefly. Why is this idea 'hilarious'?
If I don't import plants and I have no one with a heated greenhouse in the immediate vicinity, then I think I'm unlikely to get whitefly. Why is this idea 'hilarious'?
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Jenny Green
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Also, Johnboy, could you please explain why my gardening methods are going to make it more likely that I'll get whitefly?
Hello Jenny - having just read up on this, yours is the last post I would describe as redundant. Very current, it appears. Interesting too. I have posted my response under the 'Whitefly' topic.
The cow is of the bovine ilk
One end is moo, the other, milk.
One end is moo, the other, milk.
Hi Jenny,
To quote my sentence "Of course you can import plants infected with scales and no sign of the actual flies."
I didn't think a person of your experience needed me to spell it out to you I just assumed that you would realize that within four days the scales hatch out and you will have an outbreak of White Fly. You can buy plants that outwardly appear not to have White
Fly yet in fact do.
You quote that White Fly cannot over winter in Colorado. Fact as that may be it bears absolutely no bearing on conditions in the UK. If you care to look at the zonal temperature charts for UK and Colorado USA you will note that Colorado is Code 5 in the East and Code 4 in the West. Most of UK is Code 8 and some coastal areas Code 9. considerably warmer.
The fact of the matter is that in UK White Fly DO withstand our milder winters and they find hiding places like cold greenhouses. Also they will bury into things like Ivy and Virginia Creeper and survive in great numbers.
Because you are Organic you are more likely to get an attack of White Fly. Now I was trying to stay off the Organic bit but I regret you have force my hand.
Now you are going to fly off the handle because I have said something anti-organic.
To quote my sentence "Of course you can import plants infected with scales and no sign of the actual flies."
I didn't think a person of your experience needed me to spell it out to you I just assumed that you would realize that within four days the scales hatch out and you will have an outbreak of White Fly. You can buy plants that outwardly appear not to have White
Fly yet in fact do.
You quote that White Fly cannot over winter in Colorado. Fact as that may be it bears absolutely no bearing on conditions in the UK. If you care to look at the zonal temperature charts for UK and Colorado USA you will note that Colorado is Code 5 in the East and Code 4 in the West. Most of UK is Code 8 and some coastal areas Code 9. considerably warmer.
The fact of the matter is that in UK White Fly DO withstand our milder winters and they find hiding places like cold greenhouses. Also they will bury into things like Ivy and Virginia Creeper and survive in great numbers.
Because you are Organic you are more likely to get an attack of White Fly. Now I was trying to stay off the Organic bit but I regret you have force my hand.
Now you are going to fly off the handle because I have said something anti-organic.
JB.
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Jenny Green
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Johnboy, so you agree then that it ispossible to import whitefly on plants? That this 'scientific theory' isn't 'hilarious'?
And please explain further how the whitefly know I grow organically and make a beeline for my greenhouse? You see I could understand it if you were to say that I might find it harder to eradicate them (though I wouldn't agree - some strains have become pesticide resistant and the best method of control would be the organic, biological one, in my opinion) but I can't see how being organic actually encourages them.
And please explain further how the whitefly know I grow organically and make a beeline for my greenhouse? You see I could understand it if you were to say that I might find it harder to eradicate them (though I wouldn't agree - some strains have become pesticide resistant and the best method of control would be the organic, biological one, in my opinion) but I can't see how being organic actually encourages them.
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Jenny Green
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Chez, I read your post on whitefly. Very interesting!
Jenny, If I may dare to have my say in the present company, may I add comments which may be helpful. My experience with whiefly is that it is symtomatic of the conditions in which the plants find themselves rather than a question of whether or no you have introduced them.A healthy plant will resist whitefly naturally, indeed modern research says that plants can make their own pesticides if well grown. If the plants are stressed, in particular a dry atmosphere, maybe merely at certain times you will get a whitefly attack no matter what else you do to stop it. Frequent misting especially in hot weather can keep this in check.
Next point is that greenhouse whitefly are not the same as outdoor whitefly and don't like being left out in the cold, therefore I frequently clean up plants by standing them outside for as long as possible, of course you have to be careful with more tender plants not to get them frosted as you would no doubt realise.
I hope some of this helps.I will not make any further comments on this topic.
regards
Allan
Next point is that greenhouse whitefly are not the same as outdoor whitefly and don't like being left out in the cold, therefore I frequently clean up plants by standing them outside for as long as possible, of course you have to be careful with more tender plants not to get them frosted as you would no doubt realise.
I hope some of this helps.I will not make any further comments on this topic.
regards
Allan
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Jenny Green
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Johnboy thank you very much for your private message. I think for the sake of clarity to readers of this thread it's important that I reply publicly.
May I remind you that I originally stated that my growing my own plants may be one of the reasons I've never had whitefly. Your response to this was that my 'scientific theory' was 'hilarious'.
You then went on to say that it is possible to import whitefly on bought-in plants. You've explained this apparent contradiction by saying that people who grow from seed get whitefly too. I've never denied this - only that growing from seed is a possible protection.
You say my referral to a Colorado website was irrelevant - my main points were that whitefly do not survive freezing temperatures and that they have nymph stages where they cling to the leaf. I'm sorry I don't have the time to go trawling the internet for precise enough references for you but in these two facts the reference was relevant.
You have also said that there is no organic treatment for whitefly so I'm at risk. This is at odds with your initial statement that my growing methods were encouraging whitefly. For your information there are biological controls for whitefly that are organic. So I am no more at risk than a pesticide user and nor are my growing methods encouraging an infestation.
May I remind you that I originally stated that my growing my own plants may be one of the reasons I've never had whitefly. Your response to this was that my 'scientific theory' was 'hilarious'.
You then went on to say that it is possible to import whitefly on bought-in plants. You've explained this apparent contradiction by saying that people who grow from seed get whitefly too. I've never denied this - only that growing from seed is a possible protection.
You say my referral to a Colorado website was irrelevant - my main points were that whitefly do not survive freezing temperatures and that they have nymph stages where they cling to the leaf. I'm sorry I don't have the time to go trawling the internet for precise enough references for you but in these two facts the reference was relevant.
You have also said that there is no organic treatment for whitefly so I'm at risk. This is at odds with your initial statement that my growing methods were encouraging whitefly. For your information there are biological controls for whitefly that are organic. So I am no more at risk than a pesticide user and nor are my growing methods encouraging an infestation.
Hi Jenny,
The White Fly will not survive Colarado temperatures and just to jog your memory Zone 5 = -10F to -20F
Zone 4 = -20F to -30F as compared to the UK's
Zone 8 = 10F to 20F and Zone 9 = 20F to 30F
That is one hell of a difference. In the UK
OUTSIDE varieties of WF will winter INSIDE Tunnels and Greenhouses. This information does not come from any website it comes from practical experience.
Certainly there are biological controls and all you need is a poor hatching and the WF are out of control before you can get another to batch to hatch out. That is why Organic growers are at more risk.
I have at no time used the term "Encourage White Fly" or implied it in conjunction with your method of growing.
To me there is a world of difference in the words "at Risk" and "Encourage."
The information that Chez has kindly supplied from DEFRA website I posted on the old forum some time ago but it is nice to have it on the new forum.
That it is the information that is relevant to the UK. It actually lists all the treatments including Biological treatments. Sadly most of the chemicals treatments are not available to the home gardener. I still hold a current licence to spray and are all available to me.
I invested in Anti-white Fly netting a couple of years ago and apart from one hiccup with some storm damage I have been totally free.
BTW the history of the Tobacco White Fly is very interesting it has gone from being a tropical WF and has now found it's way here via the Canary Islands to Portugal and Israel to Southern Spain then up Spain and across France and is now knocking very loudly at our door on it's journey it has hardened up and is no longer Tropical but Temperate. It is a notifiable pest and is dangerous because it carries a number of Plant Viruses which have caused havoc in Spain.
The White Fly will not survive Colarado temperatures and just to jog your memory Zone 5 = -10F to -20F
Zone 4 = -20F to -30F as compared to the UK's
Zone 8 = 10F to 20F and Zone 9 = 20F to 30F
That is one hell of a difference. In the UK
OUTSIDE varieties of WF will winter INSIDE Tunnels and Greenhouses. This information does not come from any website it comes from practical experience.
Certainly there are biological controls and all you need is a poor hatching and the WF are out of control before you can get another to batch to hatch out. That is why Organic growers are at more risk.
I have at no time used the term "Encourage White Fly" or implied it in conjunction with your method of growing.
To me there is a world of difference in the words "at Risk" and "Encourage."
The information that Chez has kindly supplied from DEFRA website I posted on the old forum some time ago but it is nice to have it on the new forum.
That it is the information that is relevant to the UK. It actually lists all the treatments including Biological treatments. Sadly most of the chemicals treatments are not available to the home gardener. I still hold a current licence to spray and are all available to me.
I invested in Anti-white Fly netting a couple of years ago and apart from one hiccup with some storm damage I have been totally free.
BTW the history of the Tobacco White Fly is very interesting it has gone from being a tropical WF and has now found it's way here via the Canary Islands to Portugal and Israel to Southern Spain then up Spain and across France and is now knocking very loudly at our door on it's journey it has hardened up and is no longer Tropical but Temperate. It is a notifiable pest and is dangerous because it carries a number of Plant Viruses which have caused havoc in Spain.
JB.
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pragmatic
Get the hosepipe out and knock them for six behind the ears with that. They don't usually walk around and can't flynwith wet wings. Or isn't H2O organic, how can it be if it's chemical?
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Jenny Green
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Johnboy I think we've both said as much as we want to say on this topic. You refer to Chez's post. Let me remind you that DEFRA clearly state:
'Prevent Whitefly from entering the growing area-when new plants have been purchased, isolate them for at least one month to allow you to monitor the newcomers for development of pest.'
Therefore my practice of growing plants from seed will have some effect on my risk of getting whitefly, and my idea is not 'hilarious'. I only ever stated that it was one of the methods, not a complete protection. Since you seem incapable of apologising for or retracting this statement we will just have to agree to differ.
Regarding my organic practices you said Because you are Organic you are more likely to get an attack of White Fly. Now what you're trying to change this to is that I will have more trouble eradicating it, if I get an attack. Given that many strains of whitefly have become pesticide resistant I think organic control is at least on a par if not superior to conventional methods and is indeed often recommended. However, 'getting' is to my mind quite difficult to dealing with. If this is in fact what you meant then I will forgive the lack of clarity and we will have to differ also on the best method of coping with an attack.
'Prevent Whitefly from entering the growing area-when new plants have been purchased, isolate them for at least one month to allow you to monitor the newcomers for development of pest.'
Therefore my practice of growing plants from seed will have some effect on my risk of getting whitefly, and my idea is not 'hilarious'. I only ever stated that it was one of the methods, not a complete protection. Since you seem incapable of apologising for or retracting this statement we will just have to agree to differ.
Regarding my organic practices you said Because you are Organic you are more likely to get an attack of White Fly. Now what you're trying to change this to is that I will have more trouble eradicating it, if I get an attack. Given that many strains of whitefly have become pesticide resistant I think organic control is at least on a par if not superior to conventional methods and is indeed often recommended. However, 'getting' is to my mind quite difficult to dealing with. If this is in fact what you meant then I will forgive the lack of clarity and we will have to differ also on the best method of coping with an attack.
Dear Jenny,
We have been scrapping for years and you know very well that of all people I value your opinion very highly above most.
I did however overstep the mark the other day and I am truly sorry. I will endeavour to keep myself in check in the future where you are concerned.
I therefore unreservedly apologise to you for the offence I have obviously caused you.
Sincerely, Johnboy.
We have been scrapping for years and you know very well that of all people I value your opinion very highly above most.
I did however overstep the mark the other day and I am truly sorry. I will endeavour to keep myself in check in the future where you are concerned.
I therefore unreservedly apologise to you for the offence I have obviously caused you.
Sincerely, Johnboy.
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Jenny Green
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Thank you Johnboy. Your apology is warmly accepted. May we live to scrap another day! 