is Organic food better

[lizzie]

Lizzie you say you use FYM on your lottie have you thought what food the animals are fed on that provide your FYM and how we got BSE ?

I think we have to make our choices and do as much or as little as is needed to be happy in what we put into our bodies !

Hi Gilly

I said fym but I meant horse manure. I didn't make that very clear so I apologise. I get this from the stables where my son rides so I have a fair idea of what the owners feed their ponies.

As for making choices, it all comes down to money in the end, and what I can afford to spend on food bills. I stick with my proper cooking and no convenience foods. I have 2 vegetarians to cater for so it's easier to cook with fresh ingredients. Plus, if I didn't cook how would my children learn about nutrition cos kids are not taught cookery or food hygeine in schools much anymore. They're not taught how to manage a budget either. It's down to me to do that. Organic or not, it all boils down to cash and, being the realist that I am, I believe there is someone in and out of the organic/non organic movement trying to part me from my cash.

[alan refail]

To return to BSE - which has a lot to do with Organic versus intensively produced food, here is a telling comment:

"The story of BSE in Britain is a case study in the ruthless efficiency of intensive farming, the self-serving behaviour of government departments and the patronising caution extended to the public when explaining risk. It reveals the impotence of the scientists involved - at least at the outset, when they were being called upon to give meaningful advice while still battling to understand a disease they had never encountered before."

The full article is at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/bse/article/0 ... 60,00.html

For the full BSE enquiry report:

http://www.bseinquiry.gov.uk/

Alan

[Gilly C]

Glad to hear that Lizzie I too have a source of Horse muck I think lots of people do not realise what goes into animal feeds, I keep chickens and it is hard to get chick crumbs that are not medicated though not impossible, I prefer to manage without medication whenever possible and use natural remedies as much as I can.
JB though I use as little chemicals as possible no slug pelletts or weedkiller, I still stand by lots of medication goes into animal feed and people need to think about the number of battery eggs that go into prepared food such as biscuits and cakes etc. I am lucky that I have no need to work and start all my meals from scratch baking my own bread cakes,scones and biscuits with eggs from my own chickens and most veg home grown but I am lucky enough to have an organic supply close by and am also lucky that I can afford to buy this instead of from the supermarket. I have been hard up and know how hard it is to feed a family I have 3 healthy children who have not had hospital stays(age 30, 28, 23) except for my son who is in the Army and that was after medication before going to Iraq but that as they say is another story.

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
I have read both websites and feel that the whole
situation has been handled in an appalling manner.
I feel the jury is still out on the whole subject.
This quote seems to say a lot!
Quote:
But then, there were government ministers saying there was no conceivable risk [to humans], so how could we expect abattoir workers to go to extraordinary lengths to dissect out spinal cords?"
----------------------------------------------------
To me this is a case where the government would not listen to or give scientists the funding to research more fully what they had reported.
Also I feel that the civil servants have a lot to answer for.
Although the Scrapie theory is still held by some scientists it quite clearly states in several places that the Prions responsible are unaffected by rendering temperatures.
I feel that they are really no nearer a conclusion
than when the whole episode became apparent.
What it does do though is highlight the politicians as a useless load of individuals!
We have an abattoir in the village and the lengths that they have to go through are to be believed.
They have just had to build a suite for the Vet to relax in and give the Vet all the conveniences. This is fine but it has not done the slightest thing to find the cause of BSE and it cost the Abattoir £180000. for which they have had to foot the bill.
Governments always seem to be good at spending other peoples money.
JB.

[Cider Boys]

All this talk about nasty chemicals and I thought the whole dependence of our shared interest in growing plants was due to a chemical reaction activated by water.

Barney

[submariner]

I have just caught up with this thread again. Surely whatever we do it is personal choice. Talking as someone who has a problem walking unaided, I toook VIOXX, and it was the panacea of all things. My pain reduced greatly, and my walking was better, and easier. I would still be takeing it, knowing the small chance of heart trouble it could cause. Ok, it might have shortened my life a little, but the quality would have been better! As it is, I am now living on a diet of pain killers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not whingeing, because there are people out there far worse off than me, and I had 60 good years before the problems started, and I can still get about, with the aid of a wonderful wife, and a scooter that goes into the car. I can even garden sitting down!! Personal choice is everything, especially in this nanny state in which we live.

[Gilly C]

[/quote] Surely whatever we do it is personal choice.

my point exactly ! I was diagnosed with Arthrhitis in my early 30's I have not seen a Doctor for 20 years and take Glucosamine and Omega 3 works for me and if I stop taking them the pain and stiffness is a lot worse !I have it in my ankles, knees hip and fingers but I still enjoy walking my 3 dogs and gardening, am lucky enough to live in a Bungalow which makes my life a lot easier

[beefy]

All this talk about nasty chemicals and I thought the whole dependence of our shared interest in growing plants was due to a chemical reaction activated by water.

Barney

And heres something else we need to consider.
Everything comes from the earth (unless someone is bringing it in by spacecraft)so how can anything not be organic?

[Allan]

What started out as a reference to some intelligent scientific appraisal of the facts has ended up as yet another pro-and anti- organic brawl the like of which we have seen only to often.
As originator of the topic I think it is time the whole matter is dropped. Where are all these moderators?
Allan Day

[alan refail]

What started out as a reference to some intelligent scientific appraisal of the facts has ended up as yet another pro-and anti- organic brawl the like of which we have seen only to often.
As originator of the topic I think it is time the whole matter is dropped. Where are all these moderators?
Allan Day

All contributors to this thread might do well to have look at:-

viewtopic.php?t=3769

Alan

[alan refail]

To get back to the original topic, here are guides to some evidence. There might be some useful leads here for both supporters and opponents to follow up:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... anic26.xml

and

http://news.independent.co.uk/environme ... 414745.ece

Alan

[Johnboy]

Hi Alan,
Well when the staple diet of this country is Kiwi Fruit then I think you might have a point.
Did you read the Link in the Telegraph Report
You simply check on Link in Blue.
I wonder what you have to say about the last paragraph of the article in the Independent so to refresh your memory:
Quote:
But the study said other organic foods - such as milk, tomatoes and chicken were significantly less energy efficient and could be more polluting than intensively farmed equivalents.

So you see that Organic is not the be all and end all of it as you seem to think.
JB.

[Jenny Green]

Johnboy, perhaps it would be more helpful if you were to respond to the rest of the article, such as this:

Scientists in Britain, France and Poland examined organic carrots, apples, peaches and potatoes and discovered that they have greater concentrations of vitamin C and chemicals that protect against heart attacks and cancer than non-organic produce. The research could challenge official government guidelines which suggest there is no evidence of organic food being healthier than conventional produce. That led to the assertion by Mr Miliband, the Environment Secretary, which he later qualified by saying that he ate organic food both because of its taste and the environmental benefits.
The new studies found that organic tomatoes had more vitamin C, beta-carotene and flavonoids, which are known to help against cancer and heart disease, though they also had less lycopene, which is thought to help prevent skin ageing, diabetes and osteoporosis. Organic apple puree was found to contain more phenols, flavonoids and vitamin C than non-organic versions.

or this:


"This research shows there are benefits," said Dr Kirsten Brandt of Newcastle University, which led the research. "The reason why it's such a grey area is because it's extremely difficult to measure the health benefit in any food, but we can say that if you eat 400g of fruit and vegetables per day you would get 20 per cent more nutrients in organic food."


or this:


The study follows US research published last week suggesting organic kiwi fruit has higher levels of nutrients than conventional crops. The kiwi fruit was found to have significantly more polyphenols - the healthy compounds found in red wine and coloured berries. It also had higher levels of antioxidants and vitamin C, according to a report published in the magazine Chemistry & Industry.
The French element of the latest study looked at organic peaches and found they had "a higher polyphenol content at harvest" and concluded that organic production had "positive effects ... on nutritional quality and taste". Researchers at Warsaw Agriculture University found similar benefits in organic tomatoes.
Dr Brandt's work on organic produce included a focus on a natural pesticide in carrots, falcarinol, which is believed to reduce cancer tumours. This led her to conclude two years ago that a raw carrot eaten each day might be better than the recommended five portions of fruit and vegetables.

and qualify your continued attack on the organic 'lobby' that they make baseless and unscientific claims about the benefits of organic produce.

[alan refail]

Thanks, Jenny, for quoting a whole lot more than Johnboy's single sentence and flip comment about kiwi fruit. I posted the links for information, as at least you seem to appreciate. I hope other members do too.

Alan

[richard p]

if the quote
"But the study said other organic foods - such as milk, tomatoes and chicken were significantly less energy efficient and could be more polluting than intensively farmed equivalents."

is read with the previous para of the independant article it gives a far different message.

"The debate intensified last month when a report for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs found "many" organic products had lower ecological impacts than conventional methods using fertilisers and pesticides."


Oh dear i think im sniping again


with regard to the link in the telegraph article, which basically puts the view that organic plants produce their own insecticides in harmful quantities cos thy havent been sprayed with synthetic pesticides.
what is ignored is that natural plant pesticides have been around for thousands of years and the "human body" has had the time to evolve responses to them. wheras the synthetic poisons are in evolution terms too new for the body to have adapted responses to.
plant toxins tend to occur in specific parts of the plant , eg there is no compulsion for us to eat potatoe leaves.

it also claims that the natural insecticides are among the most toxic substances known to man.
a commom plant based insecticide is pyrethrum (you can look it up on google as i just have) it comes from the seeds of a specific geranium, the effects are specific to insects and have little effect on warm blooded animals and the pyrethrum breaks down in sunlight to harmless compounds within 12 hours.

gone to get the hard hat