Bread making corner

[Ricard with an H]

I'm still not sure how many and if there is much interest.

I make bread regularly, we don't buy bread. Even though I've run the gamut of sourdough techniques and problems, one other was to make common-or-garden white bread but with some substance and taste. This has been going on for six months and I always used a machine to make dough though removed it for baking.

I think I tried every technique and various ingredients before I arrived at what I wanted, then I bought store-produced bread to compare. I don't know how they get that candy floss texture though the i store bakery bread from M&S and Waitrose are better.

Getting the water percentage is crucial to the texture you want and buying an organic flour makes a difference though to be honest I made good bread with the cheapest flours and with both plain flour and bread making flour. If you bake bread it's worth trying plain flour for the change in texture, all the expensive French flours being sold by dealers are lower gluten flour. Or rather, lower protein.

If you want to talk, give me a nudge.

[robo]

I have spells of backing my own bread , I'm on my second bread maker I used the first one that much all the buttons disintegrated the second one is not as good ,but I don't get as involved as you do I just make plain bread of different mixtures sometimes soda bread which is nice with soup

[Ricard with an H]

I did try a few mixtures Robo, they were good but I always find I prefer more water in the mix. For example, most white flour recipes use 300ml of water to 500 grams of flour I use 340 and it opens the texture. When you add seeds and wholemeal then maybe a little rye the mix needs more water than for straight flour.

Wetter is better has been a technique instilled into me but wet dough is difficult. If your dough is easy to handle you can probably improve on the bread produced. When they build these mixes they want you to buy more and making the dough difficult won't help them but give you a nicer loaf if you get it right. Too wet is also a problem.

Aim for 68% water to flour for straight white flour, then roll it in brown rice flour or seeds to stop it sticking rather than more flour.

[JohnN]

I've been using a very cheap (£20) Lidl bread maker for some 5 years, but I don't try anything fancy. I agree that most packet breads need more water than they say, and I find a little olive oil adds to the texture and flavour.

[Ricard with an H]

John. Some things will always be a matter of taste.

I was using oil or butter for ages but never got it right for me until I omitted both. Fats are reputed to extent shelf life but I found this to be nonesense. My best way of adding flavour is seeds some seeds need soaking first.

[robo]

I never use pre made up mixes I have quite a few different recipes that I vary most of the time I'm happy with the results there is no comparison with the bought bread, my new maker is an aldi one but I'm disappointed with it not a patch on the old one that's probably why I've not bothered making bread for a few months

[Geoff]

I'm no expert, might have got something wrong. My wife makes all our bread (we try to shop only once a month, don't quite manage it, but buy ingredients to make everything from basics) by what I think is called the sponge method. Uses a Kenwood with a dough hook. Think she mixes all the liquid, half the flour and the dried Allinson yeast and leaves it in the warmish kitchen overnight. Finishes the mix next day and lets it rise in the bowl. Knocks it back and puts it in the tins in a just warm oven to prove (we have an Everhot cooker which has this oven below the main oven) then bakes it. The most common version is half and half strong white and wholemeal, we use cheap flour either from Aldi (The Pantry) or Lidl (Belbake) which I think are all 75p for 1.5kg.

[Ricard with an H]

I have also used the cheap flour from Aldi and Lidl with great success. Technique is very important and the sponge method has worked very well for me.

I stopped using the Kenwood when I realised the dough hook often just spins the dough even though it's design is meant to stop this by it's asymmetric design. The simple paddle on my bread mixer works the dough better though in smaller quantitys.

When I use the Kenwood I end up watching it's every move and unhooking the bowl to release the dough from spinning in bowl rather than being needed.

i was schooled to use my hands by a baker because machines don't let you know the condition of the dough, I'm far to busy to make bread with my hands all the time and my hands hurt so I evolved a system where I get good bread out of a machine.

I don't do knocking back because I want open structure, knocking back is more typical of English bread. The knocking back gets rid of the CO2 that forms the holes, I aim to get my breads closer to ciabatta texture or French. They use very high water content, treat the dough gently and leave the gas in though you do need to make serious cuts in the top before it goes in the oven.

Thanks for joining the bread corner Geoff.

[Westi]

Hi Richard,

I think it will be always hard to get consistency as the flour changes from year to year. In one of my many silly google searches - probably for growing tomatoes or something quite as ridiculous, I read something that said the flour is really receptive to moisture & stuff, but in bad years they can't afford to reject it as they would not have enough to meet the need so therefore they include it. They do try to dry it off, but not at optimum.

[Ricard with an H]

This is why I now always buy a batch of flour for a few months, I was warned on the last bakery course in Scotland about changes in flour. One month I made bread out of Lidl cheap plain flour, once I got the hydration right the bread was perfect. At this point I'm talking white bread sometimes with wholemeal. A lovely addition for flavour is sesame seeds in with the dough and then the dough rolled in sesame just before going in the tin or bread-form. Another is, Ikea sell a flour called Flercorn broad. It makes like a pumpernickel by itself. Use 200 grams of that to 300 of white and 360 water plus yeast and salt and you get a lovely malty loaf. The extra water is to cope with the differing ingredients in the Flercornbrod flour, best that it's wet and undignified. It helps to use a silicon paper in your tin.

In the case of free form breads the hydration needs to be less to make it manageable but that's another technique you have to practice to get right but it is worth it, keep a notebook so you know how you got a mess or how you arrived at fabulous bread.

My current flour that makes a lovely cream coloured white bread is from Shipton mill, I buy a box that contains 5 X 2.5 kilo bags. I only use expensive flour once I'm past the stage of throwing bread away because it's crap.

Another tip for tin breads is to buy tins that bakers use with proper tall sides, not the pressed steel ones that are always shallow, if you need info on good kit let me know.

What about sourdough, anyone doing it ? Do you need a starter. Oh, and always use organic for sourdough. Sourdough white with wholemeal is fab-U-Lou's.

[Geoff]

I didn't mention the various seeds that get added, not sure of them all but sesame and pumpkin get used. More Lidl purchases. What's the bread called with pockets in that we have with pulled pork, I think steam is involved in the cooking?

[Ricard with an H]

Thanks Geoff, could you share with me one of your dough recipe that you consider a success. I'm always trying different things.

How about the overnight sponge ?

Bread with pockets ? First thing that comes to mind is ciabatta, a very-very wet dough, no knocking back and massive air holes. Pockets ?

[Ricard with an H]

Im not sure if you had this photo on a previous bread making thread I started but its worth another go if you are interested. Sourdough isn't easy until you made lots of mistakes with quantities and techniques. Even more testing is free form loaves, to get a good loaf you need a slack dough (WET) but a slack dough won't stand the undignified travel from bread former to peel then into the oven.

The photo is of the first loaf I managed to bake that didn't flatten out, a slightly tighter mixture and a good kick up the pants in the oven is the trick. Takes practice but that loaf is very tasty. 50/50 white/wholemeal.

[Westi]

Bread Making is on my list of things to master when I retire. I expect lots of naughty words & food for seagulls though; but that's an improvement on the door stops that I produce now!

[Ricard with an H]

I did a lot of food for birds and loaves of couldn't et a knife through Westi, but mainly with sourdough. There are lots of books available though very few go into enough detail, my breadmaking bible possibly goes into too much detail. So much so it initially put me off though these days I'm irritated by books that don't illustrate the reasons for failure. Another irritant is the widespread rule of law for using high gluten flour in the U.K.

I love bread made with white flour, wheat or rye, the fact that it's nutritionally inert compared to wholemeal doesn't bother me nor should bother you if unless you rely on bread as your main food source. If you read an analysis of the stuff taken out of flour to produce white, and then sold back to you in various forms it's scary but the taste of wholemeal bread whilst lovely is just one taste. Baking with just wholemeal is a challenge in itself.