Is the problem back this year

[glallotments]

I've not been visiting the forum regularly for a week or two as I have had to move everything from my old website to a new one so what with that and allotmenting I've been quite busy.

I have had a couple of emails earlier this month tentatively suspecting that their plants were suffering from the dreaded aminopyralid poisoning - one person thinks the source was a commercial manure product.

Then today I have had two emails with information that seems to point to the fact that the problem of herbicide poisoning could still be with us.

Hopefully this is due to manure, stacked before the new stewardship came into play, being moved on but the commercial product source is a worry.

It looks as though I am going to need to add another page to my website so if anyone comes across any more possible victims can you point them in my direction. New web address is http://ossettweather.com/glallotments.co.uk/index.html and there is a link on the sidebar to the manure pages.

Let's hope it's just a blip!

[Geoff]

There was this post on another forum:

"Hubby put weed and feed on our lawn. He has been putting the cuttings in the council bin, but how many times does he need to mow before it is safe to use as a mulch please?"

So I looked up the instructions for Verdone (clopyralid) and posted them:

"All grass clippings may be left in place on the lawn. The first mowing after application must not be used as mulch, either fresh or after composting since it may damage desired plants. Dispose of via normal household waste. Do not dispose of via council composting schemes. The next three mowings should be used as a mulch only after composting well for at least 9 months".

I commented that I hoped they were putting them in the landfill bin rather than with the green waste. Several people replied that their council would fine them if they put grass clippings in the landfill bin so it seems some councils are forcing people to put nasty stuff into the recycling chain. It is no wonder there can be bad results with some of the potting mixes that contain council waste.

Not the same problem I know but a close relation.

[glallotments]

It does make you wonder if some of our compost problems are linked as some use council green waste as an ingredient.

If councils respond in that way the people who contact them ought to pass this information on to the CRD - give them another issue to sort out.

It's a very closely related problem and even more worrying in that Verdone+ is available to domestic users and as such can't be stewarded in the same way.

[realfood]

I have seen a couple of reports of aminopyralid contamination on other gardening forums this year and suggested that they contact you to update your website.

[glallotments]

Another report saying that manure was obtained from a source that knew their manure was causing problems last year and ignored advice not to pass it on without testing. Apparently quite a few people in that area are affected.

I have added a page for 2010 victims so if you or anyone you know is affected let me know.
http://ossettweather.com/glallotments.co.uk/manureistheproblemback.html

Let's hope it isn't as wiodespread a problem as before but it does confirm the need to be cautious. See this thread http://www.kitchengarden.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7863

[Johnboy]

Hi Glallotments,
I suppose we are always going to get those who ignore the law and suggest that there are many diseases that show similar symptoms to Aminopyralid poisoning and it is all too easy to lay the blame on aminopyralid and look no further.
However I am sure that the problem will linger for at least a couple of years or more.
I know that my local dairy farmer takes about two weeks going through his pastureland for hay and silage to individually treat patches and in cases hand digging and spot resowing. He must be the exception to the rule but never the less he should be applauded.
JB.

[Primrose]

Our local council have a Free Compost day every year where you can dig your own out, and much as I like the idea of free compost, I've always refrained from getting any because I'm mighty fearful that I will end up with it including some contaminated green waste like treated lawn cuttings or other nasty stuff which people have put in their Green Waste bins, blissfully unware of the subsequent problems that can be caused.

I suppose the only possible way to avoid this problem if you use free Council compost is to leave it in a separate heap somewhere if you've got the space and turn it over regularly for 12 -18 months to try and dissipate the toxins. But most of us haven't got sufficient space in our gardens/plots to be able to do that and don't know how long (if ever) these toxins take to disperse.

[glallotments]

In the case of Clopyralid from lawn weed killers - turning won't dissipate the chemical.

I think one of the problems with manaure suppliers is that they have always believed that time etc solved the problem of any chemical contamination but with hormonal stuff it doesn't work.

[Primrose]

glallotments - Thank you for confirming that. That has definitely confirmed my decision not to take any free compost from Council green waste recycling schemes. Would it never be leached out from the soil by rain or melting snow over a period of years, or at least slowly diluted and washed down to sub-soil levels where the roots of plants don't reach.

[glallotments]

Primrose - as for aminopyralid advice that I have had from experts is that the stuff won't dilute or wash away - even over long periods - I can only assume it is the same for clopyralid. I know clopyralid did cause problems to the composting industry in the USA.

One report I received is that the manure used that affected crops was 5 years old. Which I guess dates back to when aminopyralid was first on the market.

[Primrose]

It is even more worrying that the after-effects are still there five years later. It really makes you think about what must be happening to our water supplies. The Water utilities are telling us that British tap water is absolutely safe to drink but when you think about the millions of women who must be peeing into the system which is later refined for drinking water and they've taken their daily contraceptive pill which contains hormones, as well as a host of other individuals whose medication contains some kind of hormone, where on earth does all this stuff go?

Think I'd better stick to wine and beer although unfortunately even they have water added to it.

[Chantal]

Thought you might be interested in this, it's a press release from Dow AgroSciences that came out yesterday.

******

Reintroduction of aminopyralid products will not lead to more manure problems

Aminopyralid herbicides have been re-introduced this year to help grassland farmers deal with difficult to control weeds but with tight controls to prevent problems with manure management.

Aminopyralid herbicides are the most effective solutions to control dock, thistle, nettle, and buttercup infestations in grassland. To ensure that their use does not lead to a repeat of the issues seen previously, their availability is now tightly controlled with a significantly amended label and a stewardship scheme which ensures farmers are aware of the implications for subsequent manure management. The herbicides cannot be used on grassland destined for hay and silage nor on grassland grazed by horses. This year sales are restricted to Scotland, South West England and Northern Ireland.

There have been some incidents this year of manure containing aminopyralid ending up on gardens and allotments.

“This is disappointing and upsetting for those affected,” said Dow AgroSciences principal biologist Andy Bailey. “Although of small comfort, we would reassure anyone affected that this manure has not come from use this season under the new controls. It is a reflection of manure generated from past treatment and kept in heaps for more than a year. Also, the past long winter means old stocks of forage will have been consumed on livestock farms.”

The new restriction in aminopyralid use will mean any manure returns immediately to pasture where it will cause no harm and cannot leave the farm. The stringent use restrictions are explained in detail to every professional farmer who wants to buy a product and a written confirmation of understanding must be completed.

Dow AgroSciences’ advice to concerned farmers or gardeners remains the same – to check carefully the provenance of any manure being used where sensitive crops, such as potatoes, peas, beans and carrots, may be grown.

“If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty that no aminopyralid-based product (sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish) was used on the forage from which the manure resulted, then it is best not to accept any supply,” says Mr Bailey. “For anyone who has manure and is concerned, please contact us through our dedicated website http://www.manurematters.co.uk .This site also contains detailed information and frequently asked questions for gardeners, horse owners and professional grassland farmers.”

[glallotments]

Thanks Chantal - I'll post this on my website - lets hope he's right!

I wonder why they are esricting sales to certain areas?

[glallotments]

I'm just bringing this problem to the forefront (no pun intended) again as the star letter in the February issue of KG describes a recent (I assume) problem. It also mentions that Defra have advised that the likely pesticide source is Grazon or Forlan (not Forefront). This is the first I have heard of them mentioning these two pesticides as being primary sources - has anyone else heard anything.

If you suspect that your manure is causing problems please read this thread http://www.kitchengarden.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7863

I'm still a bit concerned that advice is to trust home testing. The advocated testing does not prove that there is no contamination. Whilst testing can prove there is a problem it can't conclusively proof there isn't.

[glallotments]

I've checked out the references to Grazeon and Forlan and have been told that
The only product with Grazon in the name which has been approved for use in the UK in the last 25 years is Grazon 90 which contains clopyralid and not aminopyralid and although this does have a similar effect but at higher levels of concentration it hasn't been reported as causing a problem in manure.
As for Forlan no-one seems to know of any product for sale in the UK with anything like that name.

If the writer of the star letter visits the forum it would be interesting to know who gave you this information?