Cold winters

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Re: Cold winters

Postby freddy » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:20 am

richard p wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8223165/The-green-hijack-of-the-Met-Office-is-crippling-Britain.html


A local event
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Re: Cold winters

Postby freddy » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:30 am

Hi Johnboy. Thanks for the reply. I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. A couple of points. It seems to me that the debate has been going on for quite a long time now, and the two sides seem as polarised as ever. What if they never agreed ? A vote ? As far as panicking is concerned, I can't say that I've seen any. I DO know this, IF I were to see a disaster just round the corner, I'd be shouting from the rooftops, wouldn't you ? I do seem to remember that it was predicted that more extreme weather events would occur, and this seems to be happening, imo. However, I'm not saying that I'm convinced by the (lets call them) pro-warmists, but as I said before, it seems to me too big a risk to play around with.

Cheers...Freddy.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby glallotments » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:49 pm

freddy wrote:Hi folks. I think it's easy to point at this and that and come to the conclusion that it's like some gigantic conspiracy to extract money, or to keep interested parties in a job. Cheers...Freddy.


My point Freddy was - how much of the money extracted is actually going towards doing something to offset carbon emissions and how much is just being pocketed into the treasury. Also the fact that putting up fuel taxes etc for whatever reason will hit the less well off whilst ministers etc continue to jet around the world at will. A case of do as I say not as I do.

Maybe someone can enlighten me how much air fares are these days and do they refelct the carbon emmissions of air travel.

If the problem is as acute as we are told why doesn't the government take the lead in acting responsibly?
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Re: Cold winters

Postby richward » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:29 pm

glallotments -
So how much of the carbon offset tax do you think is being used to improve matters - is there any data about this?

This line caught my eye. I haven't heard of this carbon offset tax. I googled but couldn't find anything. What is it?

If the problem is as acute as we are told why doesn't the government take the lead in acting responsibly?

Why do the government have to take the lead? What about personal choice? Unfortunately, apart from raising taxes, the government will always try to do the most voter-friendly thing. Even if it always seems to be the less well-off who suffer.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby glallotments » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:03 pm

richward wrote:glallotments -
So how much of the carbon offset tax do you think is being used to improve matters - is there any data about this?

This line caught my eye. I haven't heard of this carbon offset tax. I googled but couldn't find anything. What is it?{/quote}


[quote}Why do the government have to take the lead? What about personal choice? Unfortunately, apart from raising taxes, the government will always try to do the most voter-friendly thing. Even if it always seems to be the less well-off who suffer.


It was a tax we had to pay when we bought a new car about four years ago.

If the government want us to behave in a certain way then they should set an example - maybe not necessarily a lead. People can make choices but maybe their choices are affected by how they see their government behaving. My point is that if the government believe that the problem is so acute that we need to act swiftly then how can they not put their own house in order?

I know the government go for voter friendly options but is this the right way for them to behave? How is them looking at their own use of energy, voter 'unfriendly'? Am I less likely to vote for a government that doesn't jet around the world etc?
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Re: Cold winters

Postby John Walker » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:29 pm

@glallotments

Which government are you actually referring to? It's important to be specific. This tempting habit of blaming 'the government' needs to be set in the right context.

The last Labour government actually introduced the The Climate Change Act 2008:

The Climate Change Act 2008 makes the UK the first country in the world to have a legally binding long-term framework to cut carbon emissions. It also creates a framework for building the UK's ability to adapt to climate change.

The Climate Change Bill finished its passage through parliament on 18th November 2008, and was enacted by Royal Assent on 26th November 2008.

(My emphasis in bold.)
http://www.theccc.org.uk/about-the-ccc/ ... change-act

The legal requirements enshrined in the Act are being acted upon throughout government departments, with inevitably varying degrees of success. Nevertheless, in terms of responding to a pressing environmental emergency (human-driven climate change) this is, in political terms, a big step forward.

Does this not strike you as a government (albeit our last one) setting rather a significant example to the rest of the world?

Your preoccupation with governments that 'jet around the world' strikes me as a bit of a red herring in this debate. The changes needed to move us to a low carbon and less climate-changing human civilization are inevitably going to depend on top-down political change. There is, sadly, scant little evidence of significant change at the personal lifestyle level. World leaders are still going to have to meet to grapple with choices which will determine the kind of lives that generations to come will face. The carbon they emit in the process will surely be worth it?
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Re: Cold winters

Postby richward » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:03 pm

I know the government go for voter friendly options but is this the right way for them to behave? How is them looking at their own use of energy, voter 'unfriendly'?


I didn't say the government looking at their own use of energy was voter unfriendly. I see what you're saying but perhaps the government don't see their own energy usage as a vote winner or loser. Perhaps we should persuade them otherwise?

Sorry, I'm none the wiser about the tax. This was four years ago? Do you know what it is/was? I'm interested because I've never heard of this. Is this similar to something doing the rounds a few years ago, which involved offsetting flying by planting trees?
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Re: Cold winters

Postby peter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:30 pm

JW, it really is very simple, when one is refering to governments in general and wishing to avoid political party allegencies one refers to "the government". :?

You do seem to have a talent for seeing disagreement in both guarded agreement and comments that point out ways that could genuinely put your case over to a wider audience. :shock:

Imagine the impact if the UK declined to attend a climate change conference physically and insisted on full video-conferencing facilities instead, then stated how much jet fuel would be saved.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby glallotments » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:08 pm

JW
Not a precoccupation just an example but sorry you are getting far too high brow for me.

I was making a personal observation not wishing to enter into a full scale debate - no doubt I have learned my lesson and will refrain from creating red herrings in future

As Peter said I don't want to become drawn into being party political.

Richward; Maybe I was a bit confused as to the origin of the tax - it could be the one you refer to.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby richward » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:33 pm

Isn't John Walker just making the point that a UK government DID actually do something positive about Climate Change, by creating the Act? Isn't this a UK government setting an example? I don't see anything party political about his post and I'm not sure why people are going on about it.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby peter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:27 pm

Richward, the responses are based on JWs opening sentences "Which government are you actually referring to? It's important to be specific. This tempting habit of blaming 'the government' needs to be set in the right context."

Given that very many things do not change when the party in power changes, but the executive body of state (and the EU) sails on regardless with often wasteful polices with regard to energy consumption and use of non-renewable resources. Thus JW is missing the sense of Glallotments point being about government in the wider sense and allowing another "did" "didn't" argument a place to start.

In that context of government the first two things I'd like to see a massive tax slapped on, to correct stupid behavior, would be external lighting of houses & businesses for "christmas", and, shops heating their premises while leaving the doors locked open. No democratic government will dare do that, as it would lose votes, yet every year it stares us in the face and gets more widespread.

Pick something frivolous or totally wasteful to start with and build wider concencus with buy-in to an easy to follow argument.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby freddy » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:30 am

glallotments wrote:
freddy wrote:Hi folks. I think it's easy to point at this and that and come to the conclusion that it's like some gigantic conspiracy to extract money, or to keep interested parties in a job. Cheers...Freddy.


Hi GA. When I made this comment, it was purely a general comment and wasn't meant to point a finger. I think the overall point I was trying to make was that something as big as this is being overshadowed by petty arguments like "they're only supporting this theory because it keeps them in a job" or "it's just another way to get money out of us". Having said that, no doubt some ARE doing ok out of it and my guess is that not much of the money is going where it should be, but this has always been the case, just look at Road Tax.
One only has to look at what is said here to see that it would be virtually impossible for governments around the world to come to any substantial agreement. In the end, I think that the big steps that need to be taken wont be, so we'll just have to trust to nature.

Cheers...Freddy.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby Johnboy » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:30 am

Hi JW,
Certainly the last government passed a law and the credit must be given to them but sadly we need ALL governments to do the same before one ounce of change will come about.
It is no good bragging about being the first if we are totally powerless to convince others to do the same. Although the credit is due to the Labour Government it means absolutely nothing in world terms.
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Re: Cold winters

Postby glallotments » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:04 am

freddy wrote:
glallotments wrote:
freddy wrote:Hi folks. I think it's easy to point at this and that and come to the conclusion that it's like some gigantic conspiracy to extract money, or to keep interested parties in a job. Cheers...Freddy.


Hi GA. When I made this comment, it was purely a general comment and wasn't meant to point a finger. Cheers...Freddy.


Didn't think you were Freddy :)
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Re: Cold winters

Postby madasafish » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:22 pm

Does this not strike you as a government (albeit our last one) setting rather a significant example to the rest of the world?


Hmm and then support a new runway for Heathrow.?


I am afraid you should judge people by what they do and not what they say...


As far as carbon taxes are concerend, they go to pay for the NHS/wars/pensions --- come what may. And wind farms - which of course do not work in cold still conditions like the past 3 weeks...

IF Governments were really serious - and of course I speak about ACTIONS - not words- they would tax airliner fuel.

It is of course virtually untaxed.

Anyone but anyone who quotes what any UK Government is saying is - I am afraid - easily fooled.

Any Government that was serious about global warming would have closed UK coal fired power stations and ordered nuclear ones. I have news: none are on order.

It is amazing how people can ... quote what politicians say.

and ignore what they are doing.

Anyone seen any empty unused politicians' cars for sale?
Or second homes for sale?
Or them stopping flying?

Nope.




I rest my case....
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