Prince of hypocrisy

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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby JohnN » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:48 am

Assuming Madasafish's tongue is not in his cheek, his comment brings us full circle back to "Who created God?" He says that as we "exist" we (and presumably the rest of the Universe) must have been "created". But if God can "exist" without being "created", why not everything else?
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Shallot Man » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:48 am

Your starting to loose me. :? :?
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby madasafish » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:21 pm

Tongue in cheek? Who? Me? Never.
Perish the thought :-)



[quote="PLUMPUDDING"]
Religions cause more trouble worldwide than anything else, and in many cases it is just used as an excuse by (usually) young men to fight and be nasty to other people. Or in other cases older men use it for power and to control people - particularly to prevent women having any freedom.

quote]


Hmm.. Now I just think about the most bloody wars and progroms in history which all happened to be in the 20th century - at least in terms of bodies.

WW1... Religion played no part Both sides were nominally Christian.. except for the Turks who as Muslims were on the German (Christian ) side.

WW2.. I don't recall the Third Reich and Hitler being at all religious.. In anything , Hitler persecuted the Jews because THEY were religious.

Cambodia. Pol Pot killed his opponents becuase he wanted to. Religion played no part.

Stalin's progroms in the 1930s. Stalin and Communist Russia were anti religion...

The Japanese imperial expansions of the 1930 were not driven by religion. Period...

So that's about 37 million casualties in WW1., 5-70 million in WW2, 1.7 million (21% of the population), Stalin's progpoms...20 million...

and all without any religious input.

Going further back, the Napoleonic Wars, the Franco Prussian wars in the 19th Century had zero religious input.

"Religions cause more trouble worldwide than anything else" is just a bland statement made with zero historical reference, zero facts to back it up.. and based on the history of the past 2 centuries is just plain wrong.

If you want to be biased, be biased. But don't make broad sweeping generalisations to prove your point when they are historically rubbish.


And before you accuse me of cherry picking I give you the Mongols , the Huns, the Vikings and the murder of the American Indians: all driven by the wish to grab land...not by the wish to impose religions on anyone...
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Johnboy » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:56 pm

Madasafish,
It may not be an outright war but I suppose to you, but what we now call ethnic cleansing which has gone on throughput the ages, has nothing to do with religion. I suppose Bosnia, Kosovo, The Cyprus division, the six day war, The Palestine affair, The Gaza Strip affair still going on, and you can go throughout History even right back to the Huguenots and the Lutherans and you can go right back into history and religious persecution by one religion on another has be the cause of more heartbreak and harm than any other single factor.
The trouble with your argument is that it is based from a Christian point of view which is the attitude that actually causes the friction in the first place. Christians have the idea that if you are not Christian then it is wrong. Think again but a bit harder this time!
Let me tell you Madasafish it is the very likes of you that have persuaded me to forgo my religion as a Lutheran. I regret to say this but I will play no part of a religion or a religious act of any persuasion. I am not an Atheist or even an Agnostic but I am so heartily sick of the Christian Holier Than Thou Attitude!
JB.
PS I suggest that we get back to the original topic!
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby oldherbaceous » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:23 pm

I never trusted the Romans and their Lions.
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby alan refail » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:15 am

Johnboy wrote:I suggest that we get back to the original topic!


Hi Johnboy

Yes. I suspect we are going to have more than enough of religion in the news media at the end of this week! A "state" visit which is set to cost us £10 million plus, with an estimated £1.5-2 million policing costs. Makes PoW's trip look like a bargain - I'm almost sorry I criticised him :oops:
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby madasafish » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:22 am

Johnboy wrote:Madasafish,
It may not be an outright war but I suppose to you, but what we now call ethnic cleansing which has gone on throughput the ages, has nothing to do with religion. I suppose Bosnia, Kosovo, The Cyprus division, the six day war, The Palestine affair, The Gaza Strip affair still going on, and you can go throughout History even right back to the Huguenots and the Lutherans and you can go right back into history and religious persecution by one religion on another has be the cause of more heartbreak and harm than any other single factor.
The trouble with your argument is that it is based from a Christian point of view !
JB.
!



You are factually incorrect with your comments...as I have tried to show to you. As my post above. With facts.. not gross unsubstantiated claims...

None so blind etc.

And I am a lapsed Christian so your assumptions - made with sneering superiority- are incorrect about me.

Not bad being wrong on all your facts but hey what's a matter of facts when you're arguing? :-)
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Johnboy » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:44 am

Hi Madasafish,
Well I never worry if can be proved wrong. But just to say that I am wrong in every aspect without at least trying to tell me where I have gone wrong seems that it is once again your superior attitude at work.
I am not trying to get you to explain the 'virgin birth,' where I have gone wrong will suffice!
Whether you are a lapsed Christian is neither here nor there because your indoctrination, at a very early age, was Christian. I suspect that you have not got the ability to talk from any other point of view other than Christian.
JB.
PS This is my last word on the subject Madasafish and should you wish to PM me to resolve our differences is entirely in your hands.
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby alan refail » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:10 am

Madasafish

It doesn't seem as though we can get back to the long-forgotten original topic now religion has entered the discussion.

Rather than embarking on a war of insults with Johnboy, you would have done well to read Plumpudding's posting with a little more care. She said:

Religions cause more trouble worldwide than anything else, and in many cases it is just used as an excuse by (usually) young men to fight and be nasty to other people. Or in other cases older men use it for power and to control people - particularly to prevent women having any freedom.

I don't see the word "war" in there! So why you started your argument baffles me.

Remember, the topic only turned to religion when one person made the statement:

Bring back the crusades!

And that was in the context of a "religious war".

It could be argued that all wars are about expansion, power and domination, the Crusades included. It could also be argued that religion or a set of cultural beliefs of one sort or another are invoked as a powerful motivating factor in most wars.

No apologies for leaving you with the words of Bob Dylan:

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Cider Boys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 pm

On an earlier post Alan states that intelligent people do not believe ie the majority of scientists are not religious, then may I ask why do the vast majority of our Western leaders believe, are they also daft in your eyes?

I also question your statement that the majority of scientists do not believe, where did you dream up that fact?

It may apply parochially to this country but I would be very interested if that was the case world wide, especially in the United States of America.

Regarding the often ridiculous statement that all wars can be blamed on religious persons, it's as absurd as claiming that since Musolini. Hitler and Stalin were atheists then it follows that all atheists are cruel.

The fact is Alan you do not know any more than I do or anyone else whether God exists or not.

Barney
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alan refail
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby alan refail » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:40 pm

Hi Barney

Have a browse through this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists

I see a lot of clever people included :wink:
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Cider Boys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:09 pm

Alan, of course there are clever atheists, I have never suggested otherwise, it was you that claimed intelligence as in most scientists proved your point.

Quote:
Are you telling me that only less intelligent people believe?



Yes, I suppose I am. The majority of scientists appear to be atheists.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/24 ... -2009nov24

I'm just saying faith has nothing to do with intelligence.

Barney
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby Nature's Babe » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:52 pm

When you look at the marvel of life you see complexity and yet threads that
run through all like fibonacci numbers occurring again and again and , I find it very hard to believe this happened randomly, to me it points to an intelligence far greater than ours. I guess i come somewhere between both sides, while rejecting the dogma that accompanies a lot of religion, I do believe there is a greater intelligeence behind the whole of creation.
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby alan refail » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:35 am

Cider Boys wrote:I'm just saying faith has nothing to do with intelligence.


On that point at least, Barney, I am in total agreement with you.

Nature's Babe wrote:When you look at the marvel of life you see complexity and yet threads that
run through all like fibonacci numbers occurring again and again and , I find it very hard to believe this happened randomly, to me it points to an intelligence far greater than ours.


Nature's Babe
If you study Darwinian evolution you will find that indeed nothing is "random", all developments follow the rules of physics. There is no place or need in evolution for "a greater intelligence behind the whole of creation". and when you say "creation" do you mean the world you see through your eyes today or the world of the dinosaurs, or the world of the primeval soup? All very different "creations"!
For further explanation of genes and evolution I would suggest a winter read of some of Richard Dawkins's excellent books. They are by no means easy going, but well worth the effort, and so much more satisfying than taking the easy option of not thinking and positing "a higher power" as the answer to anything one doesn't understand.

Dawkins, R. (1976). The Selfish Gene. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-286092-5.
Dawkins, R. (1982). The Extended Phenotype. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-288051-9.
Dawkins, R. (1986). The Blind Watchmaker. New York: W. W. Norton & Company. ISBN 0-393-31570-3.
Dawkins, R. (1995). River out of Eden. New York: Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-06990-8.
Dawkins, R. (1996). Climbing Mount Improbable. New York: W. W. Norton & Company. ISBN 0-393-31682-3.
Dawkins, R. (1998). Unweaving the Rainbow. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-618-05673-4.
Dawkins, R. (2006). The God Delusion. New York: Bantam Books. ISBN 0-618-68000-4.
Dawkins, R. (2009). The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution. Free Press (United States), Transworld (United Kingdom and Commonwealth). ISBN 0-593-06173-X.
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Re: Prince of hypocrisy

Postby madasafish » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:44 am

Alan

I said:
"Religions cause more trouble worldwide than anything else, and in many cases it is just used as an excuse by (usually) young men to fight and be nasty to other people. Or in other cases older men use it for power and to control people - particularly to prevent women having any freedom.
And you replied:
I don't see the word "war" in there! So why you started your argument baffles me.

Hmm

So the word "fight" written by you does not mean "war" especially in the prior context of religuious wars...?

I think the description of that reply is "pedantry" :-)


Face facts: People have been fighting since history was invented. Any excuse is used .. land, religion, the beliefs in the type of universe we live in, racism etc..

If you want to blame religion, that's fine..

Then you have to start on all the other causes.. IF you want to single out religion specifically, then you are illogical.
Of course, lots of evil things are done under the name of religion. But to equate religion with doing evil is like - as stated above - saying atheists cause wars...
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